1 10 18 https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/12025741c274e2268c9effea93c872aa.jpg 7c42540cdfa2963d5216c4932e781eba Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource African American Experience - Texas City Description An account of the resource First hand accounts and stories from the African American community in Texas City, Texas. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Moore Memorial Public Library Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mayfield, Theresa Broussard, Brenda Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Inside Wisby's Ice Cream Parlor, ca. 1940s Subject The topic of the resource African Americans in the professions Description An account of the resource Inside Wisby's Ice Cream Parlor. people standing in the photo of the Ice Cream Parlor. Starting left to right: Ernest Wisby, Arletha Smith, Nadine Scott, Artis Wisby, Faye Evans, Kathi’s Williams, Ernest E. Wisby, and Emmitt R. Wisby. People listed were all the workers. Names of the children at the counter are unknown. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Unknown Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Emmitt R. Wisby Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943 - 1951 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource JPEG Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Wisby01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Texas City (Tex.) https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/6b82c113f0fa26cb2d25668dd3b66b65.jpg b17563c8aec5e4c9489ca7d62d68ce73 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource African American Experience - Texas City Description An account of the resource First hand accounts and stories from the African American community in Texas City, Texas. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Moore Memorial Public Library Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mayfield, Theresa Broussard, Brenda Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Emmitt R. Wisby Sr. and Family, ca .1967 Subject The topic of the resource African Americans--Families. Description An account of the resource Image of Emmitt R. Wisby and his family. From left to right standing is Timothy Wisby, sitting is Hortense Wisby. In her lap is Belinda Wisby and standing is Yolanda Wisby. Sitting is Emmitt R. Wisby Sr. and in his lap is Michael Wisby. Standing is Emmitt Wisby Jr. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource unknown Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Emmitt R. Wisby Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1967 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource JPEG Type The nature or genre of the resource IMAGE https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/9a463eef43ea481f80d3d879b1083967.jpg 1062c89513932517b096830ef2fffe4e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource African American Experience - Texas City Description An account of the resource First hand accounts and stories from the African American community in Texas City, Texas. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Moore Memorial Public Library Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mayfield, Theresa Broussard, Brenda Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Yolanda McCormick Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Emmitt R. Wisby OHMS Object Location of the Magic OHMS Link for OHMS Viewer https://ohms.texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/viewer.php?cachefile=2025OH_AAE001.xml Interview Keyword Allows full Omeka Record to be mapped to keywords Wisby, Ernie;Wisby, Artis;Wisby, Ernie, Jr.;Reed, Lillie Evans, F.D.;Price, Martha;Simien, Hortense;Wisby, Michael, Sr.;Taylor, Richard;Dawson, Jim;Texas City, (Tex.);Galveston,(Tex.);Sugarland, (Tex.);Augustine, (Tex.);Oklahoma City, (OK.);Houston, (Tex.);La Marque, (Tex.);Tuskegee, (AL);Barbour's Chapel Baptist Church;Greater New Hope Baptist Church;Douglas High School;Tuskegee Institute;Texas Southern University;SAGE;John Sealy Hospital;Emmitt R. Wisby Construction Company;Emmitt R. Wisby and Son Company;Jim Dawson Construction Company OHMS Object Text All the text from the XML (do not make public) 6.0 Interview with Emmitt R. Wisby 2025OH_AAE001 00:17:26 OHAAE African American Experience - Texas City Moore Memorial Public Library Oral History Repository moorememorialpubliclibraryohr Segregation ; African American families ; Mixed-race heritage ; Family businesses ; Ice cream parlor ; Meat market ; Rooming house ; Carpentry ; Construction industry ; Vocational education ; Lifeguarding ; Cotton Compresses ; Seatrain docks ; Real estate/rental properties ; Entrepreneurship ; Education ; Trade skills ; Track and field ; Community development ; Black contractors ; Intergenerational business Wisby, Ernie ; Wisby, Artis ; Wisby, Ernie, Jr. ; Reed, Lillie Evans, F.D. ; Price, Martha ; Simien, Hortense ; Wisby, Michael, Sr. ; Taylor, Richard ; Dawson, Jim ; Texas City, (Tex.) ; Galveston,(Tex.) ; Sugarland, (Tex.) ; Augustine, (Tex.) ; Oklahoma City, (OK.) ; Houston, (Tex.) ; La Marque, (Tex.) ; Tuskegee, (AL) ; Barbour's Chapel Baptist Church ; Greater New Hope Baptist Church ; Douglas High School ; Tuskegee Institute ; Texas Southern University ; SAGE ; John Sealy Hospital ; Emmitt R. Wisby Construction Company ; Emmitt R. Wisby and Son Company ; Jim Dawson Construction Company Emmitt R. Wisby Yolanda McCormick 0 https://youtu.be/G1__AhMNuYI YouTube video 0 Family Background and Paternal Heritage Wisby, Emmitt R., Sr. ; Wisby, Ernie ; Wisby, Artis ; Wisby, Ernie, Jr. ; Reed, Lillie ; John Sealy Hospital African American--families ; Family history (Genealogy) ; Galveston (Tex.) ; Texas City (Tex.) ; Sugarland (Tex.) ; Augustine (Tex.) ; Racially mixed families 29.383, -94.905 17 Address of Emmitt R. Wisby Sr. as a child. 810 First Avenue South. https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/admin/items/show/75 Image of the Wisby family circa 1933. 113 Mother's Family and Migration to Texas City Evans, F.D. ; Price, Martha ; Wisby, Artis ; Sugar refinery ; Rooming house African Americans--Migrations--History--20th century ; Sugar workers ; Boardinghouses ; African American business enterprises ; African Americans--Economic conditions ; Family-owned business enterprises ; Sugarland (Tex.) 0 174 Childhood and the Neighborhood Pool Third Street ; Lifeguard ; Swimming ; White people ; Licensed ; Neighborhood center ; Pool Segregation ; Swimming pools ; Lifeguards--Training of ; Recreation--Texas ; African American children--Texas--Social life and customs ; Siblings 0 https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/fe59240a03899e0a51a2199a4c94ac2d.jpg This is an image of Emmitt R. Wisby at the community swimming pool, holding a baby. ca. 1950s 253 Parents' Work and Early Jobs Cotton Compresses ; Seatrain ; Foreman ; Black workers ; Docks Race discrimination--Texas ; Segregation in employment--Texas--History--20th century ; African Americans--Employment ; Dockworkers 0 310 Wisby's Ice Cream Parlor and Store Wisby's Ice Cream Parlor and Store ; Barbour's Chapel Baptist Church ; First Avenue South ; Ice cream parlor ; Meat market ; Hamburgers ; Household goods ; Accounts ; Churches ; Ice cream Ice cream parlors ; Grocery trade--Management ; Family-owned business enterprises ; African American--Employment 0 530 Family Properties and the 1947 Texas City Disaster Texas City Disaster ; Anchor ; Explosion ; Carpenter ; Restoration ; Damage ; Rent houses ; Store Buildings--Repair and reconstruction ; Texas City (Tex.)--Explosion, 1947 ; Property, Acquisition of 0 670 Church Life, and the Move to Oklahoma City Wisby, Ernie ; Barbour's Chapel Baptist Church ; Greater New Hope Baptist Church ; Deacon ; Reverend ; Church ; Vo tech ; Carpentry ; Hundred-yard dasher ; High School Clergy ; Vocational education ; School integration ; Educational aims and objectives ; Athletes (Track and field athletes) ; African Americans--Religion--Customs and practices ; African Americans--Relocation 0 711 Education and Early Career Development High School ; Douglas High School ; Carpentry class ; Votech ; Married ; Hortense Simien ; Texas Southern Universityh ; Local builder ; Richard Taylor ; Lumber company ; Daddy ; Jim Dawson Construction Company ; Foreman ; Black man Marriage ; Historically Black colleges and universities ; African Americans--Education ; Building trades--Texas ; Texas City (Tex.) ; Galveston (Tex.) ; La Marque (Tex.) 0 861 Marriage to the Love of My Life and Entry into Construction Hortense Simien ; Southern University ; Richard Taylor ; Lumber Company African Americans--Marriage ; African Americans--Education (Higher) ; African Americans--Employment ; Influencers 0 958 Construction Business and Teaching Career Jim Dawson ; Emmitt R. Wisby Construction Company ; Emmitt R. Wisby and Son Company ; SAGE ; Metro Tech ; Douglas High School ; Foreman ; Construction ; Remodeling ; Wisby, Michael Jr. African American contractors ; Family-owned business enterprises ; African Americans--Professional education 0 Oral History This oral history documents the life of Emmitt R. Wisby, Sr., born in 1936 in Galveston, Texas, who grew up in Texas City during the segregation era and later became a successful contractor and carpentry educator in Oklahoma City. Wisby shares memories of his mixed-race family heritage, his parents' businesses including an ice cream parlor and meat market, his experiences during the 1947 Texas City Disaster, and his journey from learning carpentry as a teenager to establishing his own construction company and teaching the trade for seventeen years. The interview covers themes of family entrepreneurship, segregation-era education and work, community life in Black Texas City, and intergenerational business building. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.690 --> 00:00:06.299 Wisby: My name is Emmitt R. Wisby, Sr. I was born on February 19, 1936. I was born was at John Sealy Hospital, Galveston, Texas. My father, Ernie Wisby was born on December 11, 1904 in Sugarland, Texas. He died in 1965. My mother is Artis Wisby who was born December 13, 1915 in Augustine, Texas, and she died in 2007. My oldest brother, named Ernie Wisby, Jr., was born August 10, 1934. He died in 2023. He lived in Texas City, Texas all his life. Our address was 810 First Avenue South Texas City, Texas. My father’s Earnest Wisby, Sr. He had a white father who lived in Houston, Texas. Uh, he came to Texas City once to visit my dad, and I met him. I, I have never seen him since or heard anything else about him? As far as our daddy's mother, she was a Black woman and her name was Lillie Reed, who lived right behind our house. My daddy’s mother sent him to live with some white folks in Sugarland, Texas, who he was raised because he, he had skin being as light. And once he was, became older and named, was moved to Texas City. My mother, Artis Wisby, had, her father was F. D. Evans and her mother's name was Martha Price. They had ten children, including my mother. They moved to Texas City because there was a sugar refinery (unintelligible) and work was available. He, and, available, work was available. He and the family bought a rooming house that offered room and board to the community. This rooming house consists of over two, uh, twenty-two rooms. The Evans families remained in the community and raised the children while they was of age, until they became adults. My brother and I were very close. We were only two years apart and I, --everywhere he would go, go out, I would try to go. There was a, there was a neighborhood center where, with the pool located on Third Street in Texas City, Texas. However, before the pool could open, we needed licensed, licensed lifeguards. So, my brother, Jose, and I went to their pool, a pool for white people, and they taught us. All three of us became licensed lifeguards. The pool had a fence around it, and so I had to pay to get into, into the pool. People had to pay to get into the pool. I do remember one time when I was on duty, a girl jumped into the deep part, and I had to jump in the pool to save her. In the beginning, I remember both of my parents worked at the Cotton Compresses in Galveston, Texas. While they was at work, my brother and I would stay with my Grandmother Evans, my mother's mother. Well, I stayed down there until they were able to pick us up. My daddy also worked at the Sea, Seatrain at, at the docks. He became a foreman there. And from times, when I was little, work there with him. All of the workers were Black men, and the head man was a white man. The head man would come to our house once a week to give my daddy the money to pay the Black workers. When I was about twelve, thirteen years old, my parents opened an ice cream parlor and meat market store. This building was directly right across the street from our house and gave, and right next to Barbour’s Chapel Baptist Church. The store was opened seven days a week, and we opened, I think from nine to ten. The store was named Wisby’s. It was Wisby’s Ice Cream Parlor and Store. The ice cream parlor side was sixteen foot wide and about thirty feet long. The store side was about16 foot wide, also about 30 feet long with the big glass windows in front of the building. On the ice cream parlor side there was a bar. And about six bar stools and there was also six to seven tables with table booths. The store employed about five, six Black adults and a few being my, my aunts and cousins to work along with my parents. We not only served ice cream in the parlor, we also offered hamburgers, uh, sandwiches, fries, and different types of candies, different types of cookies, cigars and cigarettes, different types of meat, along with regular grocery items, the household goods. There was also a few people in the community who had accounts with us and they were able to pay their bills off once a month. My brother and I would work the store after school if we was needed. At these times we would come home, go to school, do homework, and then head to the store. We worked both sides of the store and there was also an adult present. When there was no customers inside the store, my brother and I would go outside and play games with our friends outside in, in the street and in our, in our front yard so we could keep our eye on store. So, I, so if someone had to come walking, we had, we would go in wait on them. The parlor side should, would be very busy during lunchtime because a lot of children would walk over from the school at lunchtime to get one, two of our famous hamburgers and fries. Three churches surrounded the parlor, and we would also be very, very busy, right after church on Sunday and throughout the week if there was anything going on at the churches. During that time, we also owned several properties. One was on one side of our house. Later, it became my brother's house. One house behind our house was where my grandmother lived, and there was one behind my brother's house. Also, there was two more rent houses behind the store, across the street from our house. We should, we would rent out these houses to the people in the community who needed a place to live. Texas City Disaster happened April 16, 1947. Our store. At our store, there was the anchor from one of the ships that had flown in the air through the roof and came stuck in the floor of the store side, for a long time, as we had the store. My brother and I dug it up and kept it as a souvenir. However, I don't know what ever happened to it. Speaking on that day, it was a sad day for me. A couple of my friends died that day. They were trying to go and see what had happened on the deck. I remember. I remember we were all in school and after the first explosion we all ran out of it, out into a big field and our parents came and met us at, --in the field and we all were told to return home. After things settled, settled down a little bit from the explosion my daddy who was also a carpenter. My brother and I started remodeling homes and doing restoration in our home that was damaged by the disaster. My daddy was a deacon at Barbour’s Chapel Baptist Church, which was right across the street from our house. My daddy also, he was a reverend, and he was a pastor at Greater New Hope Baptist Church in, uh, 1961 until his death in 1965. Therefore, my father was, and therefore, my father went to church all the time. My family, therefore, my family went to church all the time. Daddy’s sister lived, was a teacher who lived in Oklahoma City. She told my mother about a great Vo-tech and carpentry they had, --was being offered over the Oklahoma City over in the high school. I, I had, --would receive a great education, and my parents asked me if I wanted to go. I told “Yes”, I, --we would go and try it out. All of my friends in Texas City didn’t want me to move, partly because I was, I was known as the fastest hundred-yard dasher, two-hundred-yard dash in Texas City. Hundred-yard, hundred-yard. I ran the hundred-yard dash in ten flat. We would go to the white school, and I would win all my races. They wanted me, to go to school. They wanted to, --so, they really didn't want to see me leave. However, I moved to Oklahoma City to finish high school in 1952. I was sixteen years old and a junior in high school. I attended Douglas High School and graduated 1954. During the two-year period, I would go back home to Texas City to my, --during my break and help my parents, visit the family and friends. While in Douglas High School in Oklahoma City, I enrolled in a carpentry class in the area of Votech because my, of my interest in carpentry. After I graduated, enrolled in Tuskegee Institute in Tuskegee, Alabama. My oldest brother was there, so I went to go too. However, I only went one year because I thought I knew more about carpentry than what they was teaching me. Texas City after that year, I met and married the love of my life, Hortense Simien from Galveston, Texas, on October 29, 1955. We were married for thirty, I was married about thirty-three years until her death in 1988. We had five children, three boys and two girls also all of Oklahoma City. Then in ’55, I enrolled in Texas Southern University. During the time, I subcontracted with a local builder, Mr. Ricky, -- Richard Taylor, a Black man who also owned a lumber company in La Marque, Texas. While I was home, I helped my daddy add his second floor to our house and renovated the main, main house to our house. I moved back to Oklahoma City in 1959 and started working for head foreman for Jim Dawson Construction Company. Mr. Dawson was my Votech teacher while I was at Douglas High School. He had contacted my aunt about the foreman position, and I wanted, --he wanted me to be that position, so I, --so she contacted me to0, and I accepted it. In 1969, I went into business for myself. My company’s name was Emmitt R. Wisby Construction Company. I specialized in new construction, remodeling, cabinet making and some, some commercial. I employed both of my sons and two other young men to help. I mainly built homes in Northeast for minorities. I became a carpentry teacher at SAGE, which was changed to Metro Tech in 1980, --1981 to 1998. The company, thanks to my youngest son, Michael Wisby Sr., who joined me full-time after he graduated from high school in 1981, also changed my company's name to Emmitt R. Wisby and Son Company in 1989. We incorporated in April 1999. From the seventeen years of teaching, I focus on teaching children, children a trade, as well as the business-side of running the business, running the business. My business still exists as of 2024 with my son Michael. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, and copyrights, have been transferred to the Moore Memorial Public Library in Texas City. Parties interested in production or commercial use of the this resource should contact the Library Director at Moore Memorial Public Library. video 0 https://ohms.texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/render.php?cachefile=2025OH_AAE001.xml 2025OH_AAE001.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Emmitt R. Wisby Sr. Description An account of the resource [ohms] <br /><br />This oral history documents the life of Emmitt R. Wisby, Sr., born in 1936 in Galveston, Texas, who grew up in Texas City during the segregation era and later became a successful contractor and carpentry educator in Oklahoma City. Wisby shares memories of his mixed-race family heritage, his parents' businesses including an ice cream parlor and meat market, his experiences during the 1947 Texas City Disaster, and his journey from learning carpentry as a teenager to establishing his own construction company and teaching the trade for seventeen years. The interview covers themes of family entrepreneurship, segregation-era education and work, community life in Black Texas City, and intergenerational business building. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2025OH_AAE001 Subject The topic of the resource Segregation;African American families;Mixed-race heritage;Family businesses;Ice cream parlor;Meat market;Rooming house;Carpentry;Construction industry;Vocational education;Lifeguarding;Cotton Compresses;Seatrain docks;Real estate/rental properties;Entrepreneurship;Education;Trade skills;Track and field;Community development;Black contractors;Intergenerational business Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-05-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/487ba521eca68efecc9cb97c66108618.jpg 138b14fef45fe25450305924b03143c7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource African American Experience - Texas City Description An account of the resource First hand accounts and stories from the African American community in Texas City, Texas. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Moore Memorial Public Library Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mayfield, Theresa Broussard, Brenda Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Emmitt R. Wisby at community swimming pool in Texas City, ca. 1950s. Description An account of the resource This is an image of Emmitt R. Wisby at the community swimming pool, holding a baby. ca. 1950s Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Unknown Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1950s Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource JPEG Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context lifeguard.jpg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Texas City (Tex.) https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/449e3b54888bfb7ae0dbb4dd203652ec.jpeg e904f64fc36d21f2491b23c4c6e9ab5e https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/cc4a6ce2e955e2fc5828e8ea45f7a103.jpeg 1d9d8432f202567ecaed93af4281976c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource African American Experience - Texas City Description An account of the resource First hand accounts and stories from the African American community in Texas City, Texas. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Moore Memorial Public Library Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mayfield, Theresa Broussard, Brenda Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wisby Extended Family, ca. 1933 Subject The topic of the resource Family histories Description An account of the resource Family photo of the Wisby Family in front of their boarding house in 1933. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wisby Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1933 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource JPEG Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Info_Boardinghouse.jpg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Texas City (Tex.) Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Rooming House Wisby https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/8b744966e0a13924bc930d4f70c62865.jpg 3dc059b4b78847501660b096cc3aeaba Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource African American Experience - Texas City Description An account of the resource First hand accounts and stories from the African American community in Texas City, Texas. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Moore Memorial Public Library Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mayfield, Theresa Broussard, Brenda Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Theresa Mayfield Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Vera Bell Gary OHMS Object Location of the Magic OHMS Link for OHMS Viewer https://ohms.texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/render.php?cachefile=2023OH_AAE003.xml OHMS Object Text All the text from the XML (do not make public) 5.4 Interview with Vera Bell Gary (Part 2) - August 4, 2023 2023OH_AAE003 01:17:09 OHAAE African American Experience - Texas City Moore Memorial Public Library Oral History Repository moorememorialpubliclibraryohr Vera Bell Gary Theresa Mayfield 2023OH_AAE003 1.0:|14(2)|29(11)|96(8)|101(6)|156(13)|199(9)|257(9)|267(3)|283(4)|296(4)|346(8)|386(6)|432(7)|464(4)|494(5)|539(11)|560(7)|588(6)|597(3)|605(3)|691(7)|727(4)|751(5)|771(6)|810(2)|856(7)|953(9)|1100(7)|1206(3)|1217(7) 0 https://youtu.be/5wJqzv-E6p8 YouTube video 0 Introduction 0 53 Gary introduces herself Oral Histories ; African American--Interviews 0 89 Gary discusses graduating from Prairie View A&amp ; M and beginning her teaching career in Texas City Homemaking ; Lincoln High School ; Education ; Teacher ; Prairie View ; Intercession ; School ; Vera ; Hammy ; Miss Gary ; Miss Bell ; A.D. ; Community ; Learn ; Sewing ; Teaching ; State competition ; Students ; Modeled Prairie View A &amp ; M University ; African Americans--Education (Higher) ; La Marque (Tex.) ; Huntsville (Tex.) ; African American teachers. 0 577 Gary discusses the state UIL competitions for her homemaking students UIL ; Homemaking ; Fashion ; Clothing ; Competition ; Students ; Model ; Garment ; Trophies ; Fabric African Americans--Education--Texas ; African Americans in the professions 0 870 Gary discusses her teaching career Home economics ; Teacher ; La Marque High School ; Homemaking ; La Marque Junior High School ; Contest African American teachers. 0 996 Gary discusses differences in teaching at different schools during segregation and integration La Marque High School ; Lincoln High School ; Segregation ; Integration ; School bus ; Segregated ; Community ; Football ; Basketball ; Team ; Transportation ; Sport events ; Integrating ; Lincoln ; Elective ; Classroom ; Adjustments ; Garments ; Showcases ; Cosmetology ; Child development ; Clothing Segregation ; African Americans in the professions ; African Americans--Education--Texas ; African American teachers 0 1640 Gary discusses her marriages Prairie View A&amp ; M University ; Charlton-Pollard ; Fisk University ; Science ; Mack Galvin Gary, Jr. ; Korean War ; Lincoln High School ; College of the Mainland ; Nursing ; Elmo Willard, Jr. ; Funeral business ; Beaumont ; Husband ; Interscholastic League ; Chemistry ; College ; C.O.M. ; Heart attack ; Funeral business ; Marry ; Elmo ; Mack Marriage ; Marriage age ; University of Tennessee ; Korean War ; Myocardial infarction. 0 2108 Gary discusses the loss of Mack and retirement Tracy Gary ; Mack Galvin Gary, Jr. ; College of the Mainland ; Alvin Junior College ; Alcorn College ; Galveston County Historical Commission ; Retirement ; Heart attack ; Ambulance ; State convention ; Emergency ; Dallas ; Ft. Worth ; State School ; Prairie View ; FX Hotel ; Homemaking Myocardial infarction. ; Marriage ; African American teachers ; Dallas (Tex.) ; Ft. Worth (Tex.) ; La Marque (Tex.) ; Prairie View Univeristy 0 2565 Gary discusses her residence after marriage Mack Galvin Gary, Jr. ; Frank Bell, Jr. ; Real estate ; Lumber yard ; Evelyn Bell Travis ; Real Estate ; Business ; Daddy ; Dad ; Construction ; Parents ; Evelyn ; Evelyn Bell Travis ; Teacher ; Elementary school ; Second grade ; Retired African American neighborhoods ; African Americans in the professions ; African Americans--Housing 0 2681 Gary discusses her grandparents and great-grandparents Hitchcock ; Thomas Caldwell ; George Washington Butler ; League City ; Stringfellow Ranch ; Slave ; Frank Bell, Sr. ; Cowboy ; Calvin Bell ; Flavia Bell ; Civil War ; Louise Bell ; Butlers ; Grandparents ; Grandfather ; Wedding present ; Butler ; Bell ; Norvell Bell's ; Bells ; Jasper ; Confederate War ; Civil War ; History ; Museum ; Grandmother ; Broncs ; Spinal injury ; Flavia ; Calvin ; Porch ; Gardener ; Garden ; Louise ; Sister Ancestors ; Louisiana ; Arkansas ; Dickinson (Tex.) 0 2989 Gary discusses the community that her family helped establish and she grew up in Frank Bell, Sr. ; Frank Bell, Jr. ; Grocery store ; Eunice Street ; Evelyn Street ; Bell Drive ; Vera's Alley ; Lincoln High School auditorium ; Galveston County Historical Commission ; 1867 Settlement ; Father ; Business man ; Grandfather ; Refinery ; Community store ; Grandpa ; Sisters ; Mrs. Galloway ; Cemetary ; Slaves ; Community ; 1867 Settlement ; Bedroom city African Americans in the professions ; African Americans--Economic conditions. ; African Americans--Employment. ; African American neighborhoods--Economic aspects. 0 3353 Gary discusses how the community recovered from the 1947 Disaster 1947 Texas City Disaster ; La Marque ; Schools ; Churches ; Monsanto ; Red Cross ; Lincoln High School ; Refinery ; Survivors ; Homesteaders ; Damaged ; Killed ; Relatives ; Refineries ; Settlement ; Death Texas City (Tex.)--Explosion, 1947. ; La Marque (Tex.) ; Texas City (Tex.) ; African Americans--Economic conditions. ; African Americans--Families. ; African American neighborhoods--Economic aspects. 0 3607 Gary discusses how the 1947 Disaster created a migration to La Marque by many of the affected Texas City families South Acres ; La Marque ; refinery ; Texas City ; 1947 Texas City Disaster ; Camp Wallace ; Refineries ; Texas City Dike ; Ship ; Fire ; Galveston ; Damaged ; Killed ; Trapped ; Refinery La Marque (Tex.) ; Texas City (Tex.)--Explosion, 1947. ; Galveston (Tex.) 0 3801 Gary discusses her life's achievements with the 1867 Settlement and her Diamond anniversary as an Alpha Kappa Alpha 1867 Settlement ; Gamma Omega Chapter ; Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority 0 4291 Gary discusses her 2023 family reunion Family reunion ; Walter Hall Park ; Bell ; Britton ; Hobgood ; 1867 Settlement ; Bell Drive ; Barbecue ; Settlement ; Jataria ; Jacey ; Car Accident ; Tracey ; Heart surgery Family Reunions ; African Americans--Families 0 4419 Gary discusses her daughter and granddaughters 0 4535 Conclusion 0 Oral History Vera Bell Gary talks about graduating Prairie View A &amp ; M University with a degree in Home Economics in 1946. She tells how blessed she felt that her first job was with Lincoln High School, an all-Black school in her hometown of La Marque Texas. She explains that it was an adjustment going from being a student peer to becoming their teacher. Gary discusses her classroom projects and taking students to state competitions at Prairie View A &amp ; M for their clothing designs. Gary worked both in a segregated and integrated school system and describes the difference and similarities between the two. She also talks about the adjustments students had to make during integration and believes there was a positive social attitude shift as time went on. Gary talks about being married, first to Emmet Willard Jr., a mortician by trade, and Mack Galvin Gary, Jr., a professor at College of the Mainland and that she was widowed by both. Gary is a second-generation decedent of freed slaves and shares her memories of both her maternal and paternal grandparents and the legacy of her family living in the 1867 Settlement. She also describes what it was like in La Marque/West Texas City in the aftermath of the 1947 Texas City Disaster and the effect it had on the students, schools, and community. Gary is a charter member of the Gamma Omega Omega Chapter of the AKA Sorority instituted in 1970, which serves La Marque, Texas City, Hitchcock, &amp ; Dickinson areas. In 2023 Mrs. Vera Bell Gary celebrated her 75th year as a member. Vera Gary MAYFIELD: Today is Friday, August 4, 2023, and we are in Texas City, Texas at the home of Mrs. Vera Bell Gary, located at 125 Lake Road. This is Theresa Mayfield, local history librarian for Moore Memorial Public Library. I am interviewing Mrs. Gary for the Moore Memorial Public Library's oral history project entitled, The African American Experience, Texas City. We are conducting our second interview with Mrs. Gary. Hi, Mrs. Gary. How are you today? GARY: I'm fine. How are you? MAYFIELD: I'm doing quite well. Thank you so much for allowing us to come into your home and to conduct our second interview for your oral history. Um, so just to recap, tell us your name and when and where you were born. GARY: I am Vera Lee Bell Gary. I was born in La Marque, Texas. MAYFIELD: Okay. And what year were you born? GARY: 1925. MAYFIELD: And what is your birth date? GARY: December the sixth. MAYFIELD: December the sixth, 1925. So, you're nine, almost ninety-eight years old. GARY: I'll be ninety-eight this coming December. Two months from now. MAYFIELD: That's amazing. GARY: I'm ninety-seven now. MAYFIELD: Well, you don't look a day over eighty. (Laughs) GARY: (Laughs) Thank you very much. I appreciate the comment. MAYFIELD: So, when we last interviewed you, we talked about life in Texas City, and it was geared to when you were a young girl. Uh, I'd like to fast forward a bit and talk about when you graduated from college, what happened after you graduated from college? What were your plans? GARY: I graduated from Prairie View University, Prairie View, Texas in 1946. I had a major in homemaking education and I was taking a job upon graduating. And I wanted to come back home. They didn't have any openings in homemaking. But I did visit the office at the school to speak to the principal if there were any other openings that I could qualify to teach. Because I really wanted to go to work in September. And he said he would notify me. At the time, he didn't have anything. And it was only a few weeks later, he called me and said, “There's an opening here in homemaking.” The present homemaking teacher lived in Houston. She commuted on weekends, and she found a job in Houston. So, she wanted to be back there. And so that gave me, --I said, “It was the Lord bless me.” There was an opening for me to come right out of Prairie View and walk into a job in my field and at home. So, I had an interview, and I was hired, and I started teaching. Now, we didn't have very many students at that time enrolled in school. All girls had to take homemaking, boys in shop. MAYFIELD: What school did you end up going to? GARY: Uh, to teach? Lincoln. MAYFIELD: Oh, so you came directly from Prairie View to Lincoln High School? GARY: Yes. MAYFIELD: Oh, that's amazing. GARY: So, I was really happy, very energetic, and I knew most of the kids in my class because they were La Marque citizens (phone rings). And my dad had a grocery store, so I knew just about everything, everybody. The, uh, --I was excited for my first year of teaching, and the Texas City Disaster came after my first year, shortly after I started teaching. MAYFIELD: So how old were you-- GARY: --It was in 47. The Disaster? MAYFIELD: Yes. GARY: I, I, I started in ‘46, September ‘46, and right before ‘47. MAYFIELD: How old were you when you first started teaching? GARY: Twenty? I was nineteen. I was nineteen. Because after, --I was nineteen in May of ‘46 when I graduated, and I wasn't twenty until December of ’46. So I really actually started at nineteen. GARY: Four years. MAYFIELD: When did you attend Prairie View? How, how old were you-- GARY: --From ‘42 to ‘46. GARY: Nineteen. I went one summer to an intercession [Ed. note: mini academic session at a college or university]. MAYFIELD: Okay. GARY: In an intercession. And I was very anxious to stay at school [Ed. note: Prairie View A &amp ; amp ; M University] because I had more fun at school than I did in La Marque. In La Marque, they didn’t have very much to offer a young person, so I left school. So, I went that summer. So, I, I came out within my four years on time. MAYFIELD: You were not much older than some of the seniors. GARY: You're right. That's right. Some of the seniors that I was teaching, they would call, they would call me Vera before (laughs) I got the job. And all of a sudden they had to go through an adjustment. Mrs., Miss Gary, Miss Bell, Bell, that's before I married. So, I was taking my roll, which I'll always remember, that first year. I was taking my roll, and one youngster, akin to me, lived down the street from us. And we called him Hammy. That was our nickname. And so, (laughs), I called him old, I called him Hammy cause I had already introduced myself. I'm no longer Vera, I'm Miss Bell. You have to give the teacher respect. So, when I called him over, I called him Hammy. He said, “I'm not Hammy, (laughs) I'm A. D.” So that really was his name, A. D. So, he corrected me. And, uh, from then on, I never made that mistake again. But it was, uh, it was funny. MAYFIELD: So, you enjoyed working, or teaching the students-- GARY: --I looked forward to it. My kids were eager to learn. We didn't have a lot of problems with the kid’s parents. Being a PTA, the parents worked with the school real closely. Small community, everybody knew everybody. We would go to school, church, parties or whatever. It was the same people because it was just a small group. So, uh, it was, it was fun. We all worked together. And, and school, -the kids were eager to learn, as I said. They wanted to learn how to, --they looked at home making as cooking and sewing, which is much more than that. And, uh, we had to teach all the areas, home improvement, child development, management, along with the skills of how to make a garment. We started off, my favorite was sewing. And so, I started, my kids off sewing buttons. And just making simple little aprons and hemming. And teaching them the parts of the machine until they enjoyed it. They loved to, uh, come to homemaking because it was a lab. And they were able to move around. And so, it was very successful. Every year, whatever my students made, we would give a fashion show. Uh, in the afternoon after school, where the parents could attend. And the kids would plan and carry out the show. And they modeled their garments. And they were very proud of that. And I felt proud too because they did some good work. And I, uh, after about two years, I, uh, enrolled, -in fact, I didn’t enroll, I signed up for a contest, --clothing contest that would be on the state level at Prairie View every year. And, but they make-it-yourself rule. MAYFIELD: So, you had a state competition at Prairie View every year? MAYFIELD: What was, was there a certain name for that competition? GARY: It was a, uh, uh, state. I remember that. Our home, for our home making, it was, --and it was always working with wool. See, you have your different materials, like cotton silk, wool, linen, and whatever. It was one of the more difficult ones to work with. It's a seasonal fabric. Because of the weight of it and all. So, we would always enter, and the girls would pick out their own pattern as long as the fabric was wool. You had to send in a sample of the fabric before you would be accepted into the contest. And they would check it out and tell you whether you're qualified or not. That this fabric was acceptable. So, we had that to look forward to. And my largest group that I could, I took six girls at one, --five girls to come up, well I was driving at that time. Uh, we had, uh, --we stayed, uh, one night, two nights, and we stayed on the campus. They made provisions for us. But it was a big thing. We would, --uh, the winner was always announced and the runner ups and given trophies and flags and things of accomplishment to encourage the children. So, it was a clothing competition. MAYFIELD: How'd you do? GARY: (Laughs) I, I never won first place. I always tried, but --and, my roommate was, for four years at college, she was teaching homemaking in Huntsville. And we continued to be friends. And she entered, (Laughs) her girls, and her girls outscored mine by two points. MAYFIELD: Oh, so she beats you guys by two points? She beats your students by two points. She beat your students in the competition by two points. GARY: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Yes? GARY: Yeah, it was real close to get so much, so many points for the construction of the garment, the knowledge of the fabric and occasion, why you selected this and, uh, model. Look forward to modeling your outfit. I have a picture, I've been looking through some of my old pictures here a few months ago, and it ran across a picture being taken, black and white. MAYFIELD: Well, I'd love to see that picture. MAYFIELD: --(Laughs) Okay. GARY: But the girls were very proud. Besides the garment that they made and modeled, they had to select the accessories to go up for it. For styling, in the style show. At that time, they wore hats and gloves. It was always a dressy outfit. We never made it very sport, with wool. My girls, my senior girls were doing really college work. MAYFIELD: They were doing-- GARY: --The selection of the fabric, selection of the pattern. MAYFIELD: Okay. GARY: And, uh, making this garment, fitting, and what have you. It was on level of college work. I had just come out of college. I had attended workshops and what have you. MAYFIELD: It was all fresh in your mind, right? So, you could share it with your students? GARY: Yes-- MAYFIELD: --the information? GARY: We worked over time and work on weekends. So, we worked the hours after school because, uh, --we worked during school time. The classes were one hour. And there were 45-minute lab classes. And we worked during class time. The other kids that were not in the contest had regular class work, --garments to make. But these were my better students. MAYFIELD: How long were you a home economics teacher? GARY: Thirty-six years. MAYFIELD: And then you retired? GARY: I retired from La Marque High School. We integrated from Lincoln High in 1970. So, all our Black schools were closed down and I went to the junior high school, and I carried that project with me there on the segregated level. And about four girls to enter into the contest. It was all new to parents, really. They, they wondered, “How long has this contest been going on? How long will it take for the girls in competition on the state level?” Because the previous homemaking teacher had never entered in a clothing contest. So, the parents there were very interested. They followed us. They made room reservations at the hotel. They stayed there on the campus with the girls. And they were really excited. They went too. The parents, right? Mothers and the daughters. So---. MAYFIELD: So, you went from the high school to the middle school, is that right? GARY: To the middle school. We had a contest. When I got to high school, I taught in the middle school about three years. And then I went to high school. MAYFIELD: You went to La Marque High School? So, what was the name of the middle school that you went to? GARY: La Marque Junior High. MAYFIELD: La Marque Junior High School. And you were there for two years. GARY: Went to Senior High. From ninth through the twelfth grade. They had their own new school that they built. So, they had large classes down twenty, twenty-two, twenty-four per class. And lab class, it was, it was fun. But, uh, it's work. machines, and the cooking labs were up to date. We'd --our girls had learned to cook, --some of the techniques that they encountered over at the integrated school. MAYFIELD: So, the tools at the middle school were better than at the high school? GARY: Oh yeah. They made a difference. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. GARY: When we were segregated, we used, uh, used textbooks and hand me down equipment. MAYFIELD: From when you were at, at Lincoln High School or from La Marque High School? GARY: When I was at Lincoln. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Okay. GARY: And we didn't have buses. They had buses. We could, --our kids, the parents would have to find transportation, or they had to walk. And being a small community, most of them walked. When they got up to the high school, some of them, uh, would drive the parents’ cars. But for athletics, our football team, basketball team, real good. We would just beat up on everybody in the county and we went to state level competition. We were just that good. And parents wanted transportation. We couldn't use the school buses. MAYFIELD: So, the parents had to take the students to their sport events? Because you couldn't use, you didn't have school buses? GARY: That's right. GARY: It was back there. Everything was segregated. All the restaurants, and the schools-- MAYFIELD: How was the administration like at the, how was the administration like at, um, La Marque High School? How was that for you? GARY: I was, --at the high school, or Lincoln [Ed. note: Refers to La Marque High School here]? Lincoln was high and then it moved over to the uh, MAYFIELD: Middle school. GARY: Over to the middle school, then to the high school. La Marque-- MAYFIELD: --How was it teaching at La Marque High School? GARY: Was it different from Lincoln? MAYFIELD: Yeah, like, I mean, um, administration, how was it? GARY: Oh yes, oh yes. Administration was the same. Our salaries were different. I made 200 dollars less teaching homemaking, the same thing they were teaching at, uh, LaMarque Junior High. And when I went to high school, there was, uh, well difference in salary. Somewhere down the line, through the state, everybody’s equal, everything. I don’t know if it was the state or what have you, but everybody teaching that subject made the same thing, according to years of experience. MAYFIELD: Okay. GARY: And your degree, what have you. But, uh, I enjoyed my change. I could see a great change when we, --when I would change, integrating. It was, uh, it was rather slow, but there was a difference. In children, some of the adults, they teach other children. And, uh, some of the interest in the, the class works, some of them didn’t like sewing, some didn't like cooking, but they had to take it anyway. So, it was a difference in them. And, uh. Well, I didn't think that the difference was in me. I think it was the time. MAYFIELD: It was the time. GARY: Just, an adjustment we had to make, I guess. I went to the junior high school in ‘68. They had an opening there. They were working on this, uh, program, segregated program. And uh, I was hired in ‘68. I went to junior high school, integrated. Lincoln closed in ‘70. I had a two-year-jump on a lot of the rest of the teachers. A few of our Lincoln teachers went over to the, uh, integrated school. Until ’70, then we were all together. So, we lost some teachers and they found other things to do. MAYFIELD: Well that sometimes happens when schools close. GARY: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Yeah GARY: And we were separated. We were placed in different buildings. Whereas in Lincoln, we were all in one building, one long building, where the, the junior high, where we had both exchanges of classes. MAYFIELD: So, your classes in the middle school, they were not integrated, right? They were separated. Your, your home economic classes in the middle school? Um, they were, was it, was -- GARY: It was an elective. You didn't-- MAYFIELD: --It was elective. But were there both white and Black students in that school? In the middle school? GARY: In the middle school was there? MAYFIELD: Was there both white and Black students? GARY: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Okay, and then did you teach? All together? Both white and Black? GARY: Yes. MAYFIELD: In the same classroom? GARY: Yes. There's no difference. MAYFIELD: Good. GARY: As I said, there was some adjustments to be made. But they got accustomed to that. Cause they had to be together. Cause that was the only school they could go to, the Black school had closed down. So, in later years I began to see a difference in the change in the attitudes of children. Not toward each other, but, uh, socially. It was, uh, --our kids, it appeared to be in better control. When we had, --that's my idea. When we had them all together at Lincoln, under one building. But after they, --uh, Lincoln closed down and they were scattered all around. Seemed like the children, --I don't know whether they lost their interest or what happened. They went through a period of adjustment. And it seemed like I wasn't getting as much done in my class, as I did at Lincoln. And now, after that, La Marque High School was a beautiful school. It was new. It had a showcase out in the hallway where you could display things, at the commons where we would eat. And so, we kept that window decorated for a while. Then, maybe, we stopped doing that.But garments, when they finished their garments, they put them out in the display, put their name on it and the grade. And that stirred up a lot of interest in them because we got a lot of kids would go by the windows and look to see what. And we were changing, as we would change in the classroom, different outfits. I said, we showed off. Everybody didn't make the same thing. Everybody-- MAYFIELD: --Oh you showed off -- GARY: --everyone pretty much charged to make what they wanted to make-- MAYFIELD: You showed off the outfits you were making in your class in those, like those cabinets in the hallway-- GARY: --In the showcases, in the, in the hall and the commons, which was good. It was real, really good. Uh, one favorite thing was, uh, the press-on signs. You’d buy these, uh, press-on lettering and apply so much heat to it and it would stick to your garment. So, and they had animals. It all depended on what you are interested in, whether you wanted to get a press-on or not. And the kids would buy the pullover sweats. Before they started wearing their hoods on them. And they would put their names on them. Put different things on them. And that served a lot of interest. So, it's, uh, --of course, no matter what you teach, you have to make your setting inviting to kids. They want to learn. They want to come in there to you. And they feel proud after they leave out. And homemaking was a four-year elective. They could take it four years. Or they could take it one year. They could go into cosmetology and child development. They had different year, --foods, --they could go into without their clothing only. [Ed note: students had other options in homemaking]. GARY: I met him when I was a senior at Prairie View. His first cousin, he's from Beaumont. MAYFIELD: He's from Beaumont, okay. GARY: And my best friend was from Beaumont. And she and I were, we weren't roommates, but she was across the hall for me. And so, we were very close. We had classes together. And, every year, --and they still do the I F, I F L, I H L [Ed. Note: UIL, University Interscholastic League] or something, competition in athletics. And they would come to Prairie View, cause it’s a state school, and they’d have their playoffs after they finished district. Well, Charlton-Pollard, [Ed. note: Charlton-Pollard, a Black segregated High School in Beaumont, Texas] (laughs) where my friend's cousin, was attending Charlton, he would come to Prairie View and uh, to the Interscholastic League. That's what they call it, Interscholastic League. He went to after, --after I am jumping ahead, after he finished high school at Charlton, he went to Fisk University in Tennessee. And, uh, he finished there, and he came back working at Charlton, at the high school where he finished. He got the job there. But he finished. He was a science teacher. He was a chemistry major, math minor. And, um, “A” student. MAYFIELD: And what? GARY: “A” student. A. MAYFIELD: Egg? GARY: A-B-C. He was an “A” student. MAYFIELD: Oh, an “A” student. Uh huh. GARY: Uh huh. That “A” didn’t come out very clear (laughs). But, when he would come to Prairie View, the IFL, the Interscholastic League, playoffs, uh, we would always see each other. So, this went on for a period of some years. We had known each other two or three or four years. But, uh, he went into service. And, uh, but he came back, --he went into service after high school. Korean War? MAYFIELD: What was his name? GARY: Mack Galvin Gary, Jr. He started out at the College of the Mainland. He was one of the first Blacks hired at the college. When they were getting their college program together, their faculty, because he was a science teacher. And he applied for it. MAYFIELD: A science teacher at A&amp ; amp ; M? Is that what you're saying? GARY: At at at the college? MAYFIELD: At the college. GARY: After he had gone to war, he finished high school, went to Fisk, and went into service, and came out of service, he got a job teaching in Beaumont, and we married. So, he got a job teaching in La Marque and from Lincoln, he went to the college. MAYFIELD: And what college was that again? He went from Lincoln to what college? GARY: It's College of the Mainland. MAYFIELD: Oh, College of GARY: I said, C-O-M. It's College of the Mainland. He was a science teacher over there. He taught nursing classes, anatomy, and physiology. He, he didn't go into math. All his was science. Microbiology and all that kind of stuff. He liked it. Biology. MAYFIELD: So, when you first moved here, back from college and you're going to school. Are you living with your parents? GARY: I moved back home to my parents. I was home two years before I married. MAYFIELD: And then you moved where? When you got married? Well, what year did you get married? GARY: Well, my first marriage and second marriage we very seldom talk about it. MAYFIELD: Wait, wait. GARY: It didn't last long, it was short-lived-- MAYFIELD: --Who was your first marriage? Who was your first marriage? Mister? GARY: My first marriage was after I finished, --no, my first marriage, when I finished, I was still living with my mother, but I was teaching at Lincoln. And then in visiting my good friends over in Beaumont, I met this guy. Imagine, he was an older fella. MAYFIELD: What was his name? GARY: Elmo Willard, Jr. MAYFIELD: Emmet Willard? Junior? GARY: Elmo Willard Junior. MAYFIELD: Can you spell his name for me? GARY: E-L-M-O MAYFIELD: Elmo-- GARY: --Willard, W-I-L-L-A-R-D. MAYFIELD: Oh, how long were you married to Mr. Willard? GARY: Two years, two years. He had a heart attack. GARY: Oh, he was in his forties. MAYFIELD: Okay. So, he was definitely older. GARY: I did say he was the older fellow. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. GARY: But he didn't look it. He looked good at that age. MAYFIELD: He didn't look his age. GARY: He didn't look like his age. But anyway, he had a heart condition. I didn't know until after I married. You find a lot of things (laughs) about a person after you’re married. But you’re into it, so you make the best of it. MAYFIELD: So, you were teaching, what was he doing, Mr. Willard? GARY: He was in funeral business. GARY: He was a businessman. MAYFIELD: Funeral business. GARY: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Where and where did he work? GARY: In Beaumont. MAYFIELD: Okay. GARY: In Beaumont. MAYFIELD: So, you went to Beaumont every day to go to work, and you lived here in, uh, La Marque-- GARY: --No, I, I, I was settled down. I, I didn't work. MAYFIELD: Oh, you didn't work. GARY: No, he took care of me (laughs). MAYFIELD: How old were you when you first married him? GARY: Oh, I was, uh, let's see. I, I can hardly remember how old I was, (laughs) but it was so long ago. GARY: --It was, let me see, let me stop and think. I was twenty. I guess I was twenty-two, twenty-three, something like that. MAYFIELD: So, you were twenty-two or twenty-three, so then you stopped working for the high school, and you moved to Beaumont-- GARY: --Yeah, I stayed in Beaumont for four years. MAYFIELD: Okay. MAYFIELD: Okay. And then you met your-- GARY: --And then I married Mack. Mack worked in Beaumont because I met him through my roommate. I knew him. MAYFIELD: What year did you marry Mack? GARY: Fifty-five. GARY: Um, forties, ‘40, I don't know exactly. I forgot. MAYFIELD: Okay. That's okay. That's okay. GARY: Uh, yes. I was married to Mack twenty-nine years. We had Tracy. And, um, Mack was, --I was, uh, uh, when he passed, he had a heart attack, too. Uh, massive heart attack, --went right on out. He was over at the college. College classes run ; --you don't have one hour straight. You may have a class Tuesday, Thursday, or, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, or something like that. But anyway, he would go. He taught maybe one class or two a day or something like that. But anyway, he would come home for lunch. I was over at the high school. And he would come home every day for lunch and look at, uh, Young and the Restless. He (laughs) fell in love with that. So, he would come in and look at that, then he'd go back to work. It's on his lunch break. Cause, you know, the college is just about five, six minutes from the house. Not far. Ten at the most. But, uh, anyway, being a scientist, he felt, I guess, this coming on. And I was, --he was here by himself. He called the ambulance. And there were a couple of the high school boys outside cutting the grass. They'd use high school kids, give them work, put a little money in their pockets. They were always juniors or senior kids. They weren't on a public job. But anyway, uh, it was in the summer. And the boys, two of them, while they in the front yard working, Mack had come to get dinner and look at a show. The ambulance passed, was going slow and it turned around right at the corner, passed the house up and turned and stopped at the house. And the boys didn't know that Mack was in the house having a problem, that he had called the ambulance. But anyway, the ambulance had the right address. He came on and Mack let them in. But I was gone. I was at the state homemaking teachers meeting, which was a requirement every year. The homemaking teachers had to go to a state convention, up to five days then to stay up with the latest trends of everything. MAYFIELD: So, you're away at a state convention. GARY: I was in Dallas, at a state convention, homemaking, which was that week. It took only five days. And so, Tracy was with me, but I was, --she was, about, --Tracy was getting ready to go to college. She was about eighteen. And she was with me. And, um, it was a very striking thing. They called and, um, she was in her room, and her godfather called and asked to speak to me. And I was in a meeting. So, the emergency call came into the front desk, and they announced over the speaker, Vera Gary to come to the front office, emergency call. It just so happened we were taking a fifteen-minute break between sessions. And I hurried. And I went to the desk. And, uh, they left a number. The hospital had left a number to call. So, he had gone into a coma , I talked to the doctor. And, uh, just so happens, we were at FX Hotel. Uh, uh, Fort Worth, Dallas, Fort Worth. The new one, they built way out, huge place. Well, at the hotel, we were right there at the airport. Not far from the airport. And I had gotten a round trip flight. And, uh, I was able to get right on out. And my girlfriend brought my things home. At the end of the meeting, she came home to La Marque. Because she left the meeting, because Mack had passed. He was still alive, but I, uh, I got home. And two weeks later, Tracy was going to Alcorn, that’s in Mississippi. It's a state school. But one of my best doctor friends was practicing. That was his home. And, uh, he and Tracy were leaving for the first time, away from home. So, we felt very good about going, letting her go to Mississippi to school because we felt that somebody that she knew. But, uh, she didn't stay but one, one semester because when she got there, she realized that she was away from home, first time. Her daddy had just passed. So, she was there at that time. And she was in a place among strangers. It was hard on her. So, when she came home that Christmas, I enrolled her in Prairie View for the spring session. And she went to Prairie View, she went to, --that summer, she went to Alvin Junior College, majoring in child development. So, she got a associate degree at Alvin. I continued to teach until, uh, I gave it up. Retired. I matched up my years of service, and my age, that I got full retirement. So, I gave it up. I, uh, gave up teaching. So, I spent my time just helping Tracy adjust to her life. And my life, I joined the uh, I, I joined, I was selected cause you don't join the Historical Commissions Board. You're selected as needed. I was selected to run. MAYFIELD: Is that the Galveston County Historical Commission? GARY: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Okay. GARY: Mm, hmm. MAYFIELD: And what year did you? MAYFIELD: You retired. GARY: Through with school. Thirty-six years. And, widowed. So, I had a lot of friends there. MAYFIELD: So, did, where did you live when you were married to Mack? Did you live at 125 Lake Road or another place? GARY: Oh, we commuted. Commuted on weekends. Uh, Mack and I, --my daddy built this house for us. And we had the house when we were married because my daddy was in the real estate business. He had a lumber yard. He built and sold houses. But he was in a company with two other people. There was three of them. So, they built this house. All the houses down the line down there because he had a ten-acre plot of land, and he constructed a subdivision out of it. So, when Mack and I married, the house was under construction. We had already had him to, uh---. MAYFIELD: Uh, and you were living with your parents still at that time-- GARY: Yeah-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. And so, when you moved to this house, was it just uh, the three of you or did you have any other family members living with you? GARY: My sister. MAYFIELD: And what is your sister's name? GARY: My sister was here and she lived with us. She was a teacher too. MAYFIELD: What was her name? GARY: Mm hmm. MAYFIELD: Evelyn. GARY: Evelyn Bell Travis. So, my dad built her house right down the street from me. On his property. So, she was, uh, --I was on the corner, and she was (laughs) down the block-- MAYFIELD: So, you guys could like see each other every day-- GARY: --Just a block from me. Oh yes. She was an elementary school teacher. She worked 34 years, second grade, and she retired before I did. MAYFIELD: I don’t think we talked much about your grandparents. Can you tell me the names of your grandparents? GARY: When I was growing up, I knew both grandparents, my father, mother, and dad. I knew my mother's father because her mother passed when she was a young lady. So, he was in Hitchcock, that's the Caldwell, Thomas Caldwell. He was one of the slaves that was given to the Butlers [Ed. note: George Washington Butler from League City] as a wedding president from Louisiana. MAYFIELD: That's your great, that's the great grand family, right? Not your grand, not your grandfather. GARY: --both of them. MAYFIELD: Yeah, the great ones right, great grandfather from, --both of them. GARY My great grandfather was a Butler slave, [Ed. note: Calvin Bell is her paternal great grandfather and was a slave for the Butler Family and worked with Butler on the Chisholm Trail] and my grandfather was over in Hitchcock as a slave. He was a slave. [Ed. note: Thomas Caldwell is her maternal grandfather and was brought as a child from Louisiana to Galveston County during the Civil War by George Washington Butler as a companion for his first wife]. MAYFIELD: Your grandfather on your dad's side. What was his name? GARY: On my daddy's side, my grandfather? MAYFIELD: Your dad's father? GARY: Frank. Frank. MAYFIELD: Your dad's father was MAYFIELD: So, your grandfather was named Frank? GARY: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Your dad is named Frank. What about your grandmother on your dad's side? What was her name? GARY: My grandmother was uh, Calvin Bell. [Ed. note: She means Flavia Bell.] But there were two sister Bells, but they were not related to each other. My grandmother came out of Calvin Bell's family. My grandfather came out of Norvell Bell's family. So, they were Bells. MAYFIELD: But two different families. GARY: But two different sister Bells. Uh, Calvin Bell came from Arkansas to Jasper, from Jasper to Dickinson. He fought in the Confederate War. Uh, Civil War. MAYFIELD: Well, just your, just your grandfather, just your grandfather from your-- GARY: My grandfather. MAYFIELD: Like your grandfather and your, --yeah, your grandfather. You said you knew your grandfather and grandmother on one side. GARY: Yes. MAYFIELD: And then just the grandfather on the other side. GARY: On the other side. MAYFIELD: And what was his name on the other side? GARY: Thomas Caldwell. MAYFIELD: Thomas Caldwell. GARY: Thomas. MAYFIELD: So now, now, did you have, did you see them often? GARY: My grandmother and grandfather on my daddy's side stayed across the street from where I was born and raised. Their house is the house we gave to the city for a museum [Ed. note: Bell House, Texas City]. It's still there to preserve it. After I had got interested in history, later years, then we, uh, saved their house. MAYFIELD: What do you remember about your grandparents? GARY: I remember, now my grandfather was uh, I remember him, he never worked, uh, on a public job, I said that. MAYFIELD: The grandfather on your dad’s side, you’re saying? GARY: On my dad's side. He was injured, uh, he was a cowboy. He was breaking one of the wild broncs, and he was thrown, and injured his back, and was never able to do any heavy work after his spinal injury. And I remember him being there. I remember my grandmother, Flavia, who married Calvin, was Calvin's daughter. Those two would sit on the porch every day. (Laughs) That porch is still there. I think about them every time I pass the house. And the pair, out in front of the house, they’d sit out there, sit under a tree or something. And Grandfather was a gardener. He had a garden. And he raised chickens and things. But he kept a garden going. And, um, I miss them every day. We were in each of the houses. They were over there, they were older folk, they were ill health, , bad, their health had failed. So, their daughter Louise was there living and taking care of them. MAYFIELD: She was living with them? Their daughter, Louise? GARY: My dad's daughter, Louise, which was my daddy's sister. [Ed. note: Gary is referring to her grandfather’s daughter, Louise.] MAYFIELD: Your dad’s sister. And so, do you remember any interesting stories? Did they ever tell you any interesting stories about living in the community? GARY: About living in the community? MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm? GARY: Well, my, my father was the businessman. He started off young. At three years of age, when my grandpa, his dad, got injured. So, he had to drop out of school and go to work to help feed the family. So, he and his oldest brother, they went to the refinery to work. And my dad, uh, started a grocery store. He had married, he had the family. And he had, uh, a wooden store, --lived in the back room, and he had a store, a community store, in the front. So, that's how they got started with their family. And as the family grew, as fathers all told, they built the yellow house where I was born. From the store to that house. Grandpa was across the street, and the sisters all down the line. It was a community. MAYFIELD: Everybody lived close to one another, it looks like. GARY: My grandpa owned the property. So, he gave each of his children a lot to build their houses. Cause they were all, --the streets were named after us. We have a Eunice Street, an Evelyn Street, a Bell Drive. (Laughs) I asked my parents, I said, where is my street? I don’t find nothing here (both laugh). Yeah. They said, “You, you were away.” I was married and started a life of my own over in Beaumont. So, they said, “Well, we subdivided the property, and we have a easement there. It runs to Kansas, uh, 1765.” I said, “So that would be Vera’s Alley, huh?” (Both laugh) We would live on, um, Vera’s Alley. They have an alley, a street. It's not open because we had animals. We had cows, and horses, and chickens, and what have you. So, they never could, --we never forced a street through there. It adjoined our property because we had a barn back there, and my dad's lumber yard, now a cyclone fence. And so, the animals were more or less protected ; they were shut in. Well, couldn't nobody go back there, unless they go in the lot on the property. So, the easement is still there between my house’s backyard and the alley there. It's a street. It's Vera’s Alley. (Mayfield laughs) But, uh, there's a few things I remember, uh, besides in my life outstanding, was finishing high school. Finishing college. Getting married. Starting my family. Teaching. And, uh, retiring. And, uh, after retirement working with the community adults with The Settlement. And that's, --my last thing at 97 was preserving Lincoln old auditorium. It was the last building left on the Black campus at school. And being a member of the, uh, of the Galveston, it's the Galveston Historical Commission. MAYFIELD: Galveston County Historic Commission. Mm-hmm. GARY: Well, I met, uh, the late Mrs. Galloway, I think this is the first part, where she found the four slaves in the-- MAYFIELD: --the cemetery, right? GARY: --Butler log. Okay, well. She, uh, I was interested in history then, saving this community. And we named it 1867 because the slaves were freed in ‘65. They didn't know until two years later when Granger came down and said, “All slaves are free.” So, ‘67, that's where we got our name. 1867 Settlement, when it was first discovered. And I've been working with that. All of those older folk, gone. The young ones have moved away. The community is at its lowest level now. It's never looked like it's looking now. But a lot of youngsters have come in. New people have moved in. And, uh, the young family members moved out of town to League City, Pearland, Friendswood. That's the surrounding, --Missouri City. They're close by, but they are out in the suburbs. Because La Marque doesn’t really do – work and come home, raise your family. MAYFIELD: It's a quiet, it's a quiet-- GARY: --very quiet. Call it the bedroom city. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Bedroom city. Well, I like to shift gears a little bit, uh, and talk about the 1947 Disaster and not in the way that we normally talk about it. Uh, we have a lot of documentation about what happened, uh, before the Disaster happened. And then we have a lot of information related to when, like, when the explosion happened, what took place. Okay? But we have very little information about sort of the reconstruction period of Texas City. Right? And, um, at the time when the Disaster happened, you, out of all of the participants in our oral history project, are the only person who was an adult. So, as an adult, you could see what was happening in the community. And so, I, I'd like to ask. Um, you know, the, the Black community in Texas City was one of the more, it, the, it had the most damage done to that community, right? And so, uh, what was it like here after the Disaster? Did La Marque play a role in helping Texas City recover from the Disaster that you know of? GARY: Well, the churches and schools played a great part. As a teacher, I started to tell that when I first, my first year of teaching, the Disaster, and it was, it was very bad. Um, a lot of the homesteaders, I say, whose places were not damaged, practically everything was. But, uh, they lived down there where Monsanto is now. That was a Black settlement in Texas City. They almost wiped it out. So, uh, many of them came to live in La Marque with relatives, or close by relatives of those survivors. Got a lot of them killed. But the survivors, they continued to live with, with relatives and get help from Red Cross, Red Cross and different agencies to help them rebuild.Some of them houses were livable. They went back home and renovated. But La Marque played a great part then because when they were running from the Disaster well, they came to La Marque. And practically all of the houses were open to take in people. I know in the Settlement it was. And um, Lincoln [Ed. note: Lincoln High School] was open. The Red Cross brought in, uh, tents and things and fed them and what have you. But under the reconstruction, to my knowledge, they, uh, continued to work. MAYFIELD: Did, uh, people in the community open up their homes? GARY: (Coughs) Yeah, yeah. MAYFIELD: To families, uh, if they were not their family member, but just still open up their home to people? GARY: I can imagine so. I can imagine so. I know we took in a couple family members, and my grandparents, all the neighborhood people, because we had relatives that lived in Texas City. Cause they came home to us, and they stayed. But, uh, they continued to work over there at the refineries and and rebuilt. MAYFIELD: Did you notice more people from Texas City saying, we're just going to build a house here in La Marque? Did more people build homes in La Marque after that happened? GARY: Yes, yes. South Acres, that whole section out there, it was all for Blacks. And, uh, people from the refineries and people who got paid up, a lot of people got paid up because a family death. And they bought and built, and they, --La Marque getting to grow. La Marque has a lot of, uh, Texas City people have moved and built and bought property in La Marque. Cause their settlement was almost wiped out. MAYFIELD: Yes, I know, um, that's true. Um, because we have so many people going to Camp Wallace. Uh, I mean, visiting family in other places. So, La Marque being the closest relative, well, the closest city to Texas City. And they had their relatives here, is what you were saying. And then people would come and stay with their relatives here. Did you see more students? Um, did students come to school in Texas City, uh, from Texas City, uh, to La Marque after the Disaster? Or were you, did you see any changes in your classroom with the amount of students from Texas City? GARY: It's not a, a, a big thing, I don't know where the kids went, I can't remember now. We had a few that came to our school. But, uh, I can't remember of all the things. I can't remember whether they had, whether their school was damaged, and they could still go to school. Because everything wasn't torn down. MAYFIELD: Yeah, so that-- GARY: --There were places to buy. Then they kind of uh, uh, believed that. And now some of the, --now the principal of the school and a couple of the teachers got, uh, blown up in the Disaster because they went down to the Texas City Dike, uh, looking at the ship on fire. The ship came in from Galveston, and was out in the channel and Texas City took it in. [Ed. note: Referring to the Port of Texas City.] And that's when it blew up and upset the refinery. And they got trapped down there and got killed. But yeah, the school was still open. Kids still went to school. MAYFIELD: So, kids from Texas City, could they go to La Marque while they were waiting for their school to be rebuilt-- GARY: --Yeah. They, they, they could go until they decided they got their conditions, whatever their conditions were. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Ok. Well, I think that's the end of our oral history. Is there something that we haven't talked about that you would like to mention before we conclude? GARY: I would like to mention one last thing that happened just recently since I've been 97 years old. I kind of retired from the, uh, 1867 Settlement and we got some younger people that were in training that's taking over now. So, I'm just a consultant. Uh, but I, I, I take great pride in the contributions that I made to the Settlement. To make it what it was ; the Settlement on the way up instead of going down. Uh, well the, the recognition in July at the Regional Alpha Kappa Alpha, we called it AKA Sorority [Ed. Note: The Gamma Omega Omega Chapter of the A. K. A. Sorority was instituted in 1970. Vera Bell Gary is considered one of the Sorority’s charter members]. The region covers four states, Texas, Arkansas, Kansas and uh, no, --Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, and New Mexico. The region has 8,000 ladies. Alpha Kappa is pink and green. And that is it started in college, the sorority. But the Prairie View, those days when I came through, they didn't have sororities. I had to join a graduate chapter in Galveston as an adult, and I was teaching. Well, that was in uh, I was twenty-two years old. That was in ‘48. And, this year, made my seventy-fifth year as an A. K. A. member. If you are a member for twenty-five years, you’re recognized as a Silver Sponsor, I guess you are. Twenty-five years is Silver. Fifty years is Gold. Seventy-five is Diamond. I was on it as a, --one of the two Diamonds. The other lady was 94 years old from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. A Black lady. And, uh, because it is a Black society, sorority. And it was at the convention center [Ed. note: Alpha Kappa Alpha South Central Regional Conference on April 13 to 16, 2023 in New Orleans.]We were there for four days, uh, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday we were through. But it was, --really, they treated me like I was a celebrity. Very seldom, if they know, that they have a sorority to live to be a seventy-five-year Diamond. And that's why it was so special to the two of us, one from Texas, one from Louisiana. And it was geared to the, the, the sorority. It was geared and programmed to mostly go to fifty years to seventy-five. All the decorations are pink and green. All the hotels, --we went to Hilton Hotel, which is right next to the uh, convention center there. The convention center is huge. All the, uh, planning was taken on there. Now that is one outstanding thing. They gave me a, --my banner, [Ed. note: sash] like Miss America. We walked in for luncheon, and presentations were made at the luncheon ; 11 o'clock luncheon. (coughs) The, uh, Silver, --the twenty-five-year A. K. A.’s went in first. Could have been that luncheon room was crowded with women. But down the aisle, the Silver, twenty-five years after they were seated, then the fifty year bunch would come through, --they were seated. It was just the two of us for a Diamond, and we were seated. Put a tiara my head, ------------------(?)(?), my belt on, and the pictures. It was really more than I expected. And that just happened two months ago. MAYFIELD: It was quite an accomplishment. Right? GARY: Yeah, different gifts. The La Marque chapter, --I was a charter member. Forming the A. K. A. chapter for La Marque. Alpha Omega Omega have a nice La Marque chapter. So, they, --when I, uh, got back home, some of them attended the regional. But when I got back home, they had a special presentation for me. They came to the house, they had the meeting, and after the meeting, all of them came here. The street was full (laughs) of people. Everybody was in in pink and green. And they put a sign out in the yard. And I have a, the newspaper, (talks to someone off camera) “Get one of those papers off the table if you don't mind so Theresa can see.” They took pictures and sang the A.K.A. song. They had a prayer. And they had presentations of gifts and everything on it. And so, they did a great display. Here's a big ol’ sign ; a sign in the yard, front yard ; Congratulations Vera. MAYFIELD: It’s a big deal. GARY: Uh, did you ever, were you here? MAYFIELD: No, ma'am. GARY: So, I couldn't remember whether it was the first time or not. But, uh, MAYFIELD: Oh. (Looking at newspaper) GARY: This sign in my front yard. Then a sign in uh, front of the carport. They brought their loudspeaker, and they had the music. (crash sound) MAYFIELD: Well, we’ve got to get a picture of this. This is wonderful. GARY: You can have that paper. MAYFIELD: Oh, thank you. GARY: I have some extra copies. MAYFIELD: (Laughs) Thank you. GARY: The post, the postman— MAYFIELD: Yeah. GARY: --was nice enough to give me a handful of free papers (Mayfield laughs). MAYFIELD: Very nice. GARY: So, I'm just, uh, --I'm very happy over, over that accomplishment and then, but I feel that I have left something in the community. MAYFIELD: You feel that what? GARY: I have left something here in the community. That everybody growing up in the community was so nice to me and reached my peak, and I'm giving back as much as I possibly can. I only wish I was maybe ten years younger so I can be more active, (Mayfield laughs) more mobile out there to actually go from place to place to meet people and do things. But now I go as much as I'm a, --I call it my pink Cadillac, (laughs) will take me. I'm not driving. And, uh, I have meetings here. I don't have to go out to have a meeting. See, our family, --we just got off of family reunion last week. It's not this past week, week before last, we registered, uh, out the four families, Bell, Britton, Hobgood, the founders, we registered uh, six hundred people. MAYFIELD: Six hundred? GARY: Six hundred. We had it at the Walter Hall Park. I don't have any pictures to show you. We haven't gotten the photographs back yet. But, uh, Friday night was a meet and greet. We had it at a club down here. A new club opened up. And we had gift bags we gave them with t-shirts. I bought a t-shirt too. Uh, Saturday was the picnic. And Sunday they went to church in the morning at one of the family member’s, the minister had a church in League City. On Saturday afternoon at one o’clock, everybody gathered down there at Bell Drive in the Settlement, where we first started, where the Settlement started. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. GARY: When the slaves bought the land, and the museum was there. That's, uh, where we had our grand finale and so. It was nice. I said “Goodbye.” I said what have you. We had, uh, barbeque and all the works out there for them. The rain came about 4:00, 4:30. I remember the day because it started thundering and lightning. But it passed over. After we left, got out, running out the rain, getting everything, tents and everything down, they cleared up (both laugh) for a couple of hours and then it started raining back again. MAYFIELD: Higher power saying time to go. (laughs) GARY: Yeah. It broke us up. Y'all go home. You've been together three years. Three, three, uh, days not years. I just want to say one thing. My daughter Tracy had two girls. My granddaughters. I failed to mention my grand girls. Uh, Jataria (Ed. note: Jataria Smith] and Jacey, unfortunately, Jataria's life was taken at age 25. She was in this car accident. Had just gotten a B. S. degree at Texas College. Jacey is in Texas. She's a teenager. She's in Texas City. Uh, Jacey is in eleventh grade this year. But she had a few upsets because her father died, her sister died, and she had heart surgery. MAYFIELD: Tracy had heart surgery? Jacey GARY: Jacey MAYFIELD: Oh, Jacey. Oh, my goodness. GARY: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Okay. GARY: But Jacey is, --she’s doing fine. And, uh, that, that's just the story of my life. For me, --Magic, I forgot to mention my dog. And Magic, uh, stays here. He takes care of the outside. And, uh, Allie helps me inside [Ed. note: Allie is Mrs. Gary’s caregiver]. I don't know what I'd do without her. But she's my caretaker, and she takes very good care of me. I wish I could move her in here to be with me all the time. Well, you met my cousin Judy. MAYFIELD: Yes. GARY: Judith is in Missouri City. She comes about two weeks out of a month and stays with me. She's having a few health issues herself. So, she'll be back over, about after the fifteenth. She'll come over. But that's the history of my life. That's, uh, winds up the second part. MAYFIELD: Thank you so much for sharing, Mrs. Gary. I really appreciate it, and Moore Memorial Public Library thanks you as well. GARY: Well, you're welcome. And I feel honored for you to do this for me. This one, I can add, one last thing that is happening to my life, is the video. And it tells a story. Thanks to you, and I don’t know the young man. MAYFIELD: Derek. [Ed. Note: Derek Miller the Media Specialist for Texas City] GARY: Gary? GARY: Garek? Thanks, Garek. I appreciate it so much. Take your time to come over and get this history. Because it's real. It actually happened. I am the eldest one out of the four families living. I have a cousin, 97. [Ed. note: Referring to Vander Caldwell Haynes who is 97 years old]. Lives in, uh, Pearland with her daughter. She had to give up a little housekeeping. She lives with her daughter, [Ed. note: Joy Haynes Rose] --Thomas Caldwell’s, granddaughter. So, I'm kin on the Caldwell side, kin on the Bell side. MAYFIELD: Well, I think that concludes our second interview with Mrs. Vera Bell Gary. Thank you so much for sharing your stories and being part of the Moore Memorial Public Library Oral History Project. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, and copyrights, have been transferred to the Moore Memorial Public Library in Texas City. Parties interested in production or commercial use of the this resource should contact the Library Director at Moore Memorial Public Library. video 0 https://ohms.texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/render.php?cachefile=2023OH_AAE003.xml 2023OH_AAE003.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vera Bell Gary (Part 2) Description An account of the resource Vera Bell Gary talks about graduating Prairie View A & M University with a degree in Home Economics in 1946. She tells how blessed she felt that her first job was with Lincoln High School, an all-Black school in her hometown of La Marque Texas. She explains that it was an adjustment going from being a student peer to becoming their teacher. Gary discusses her classroom projects and taking students to state competitions at Prairie View A & M for their clothing designs. Gary worked both in a segregated and integrated school system and describes the difference and similarities between the two. She also talks about the adjustments students had to make during integration and believes there was a positive social attitude shift as time went on. Gary talks about being married, first to Emmet Willard Jr., a mortician by trade, and Mack Galvin Gary, Jr., a professor at College of the Mainland and that she was widowed by both. Gary is a second-generation decedent of freed slaves and shares her memories of both her maternal and paternal grandparents and the legacy of her family living in the 1867 Settlement. She also describes what it was like in La Marque/West Texas City in the aftermath of the 1947 Texas City Disaster and the effect it had on the students, schools, and community. Gary is a charter member of the Gamma Omega Omega Chapter of the AKA Sorority instituted in 1970, which serves La Marque, Texas City, Hitchcock, & Dickinson areas. In 2023 Mrs. Vera Bell Gary celebrated her 75th year as a member. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2023OH_AAE003 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-08-04 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/c0cf7d45c69f12d73d065b0ca41f1db1.jpg 261c92885ff2a46c93a1fb003ef40515 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource African American Experience - Texas City Description An account of the resource First hand accounts and stories from the African American community in Texas City, Texas. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Moore Memorial Public Library Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mayfield, Theresa Broussard, Brenda Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Theresa Mayfield Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Vera Bell Gary OHMS Object Location of the Magic OHMS Link for OHMS Viewer https://ohms.texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/render.php?cachefile=2022OH_AAE006.xml Interview Keyword Allows full Omeka Record to be mapped to keywords Calvin Bell, Sr.;Kneeland Britton;Frank Bell Jr.;Ollie Caldwell Bell;Sonny Boy;Eunice Bell;Evelyn Bell;Alonzo Bell;Bustee;Frankie Bell's Store;Thomas Caldwell;Dave Hobgood;Central High School;Katy Johnston Bell;William Jones (Judge);Rev. Wally Dunn;Rev. E.H. Norton;Gus Allen;T.E. Armstrong;T.W. Patrick;Bell Zion Church;B.P.&A;BAP;Mason;Eastern Star;Heroines of Jericho Steve's Barber Shop;Front Door Club;Club Morocco;Prairie View A & M University;Depression;Carnation Ball;World War II;Pontiac;Army;Coast Guard;Maceo's;Gaido’s;Italians;Model T Ford;Search Light Inn;Radio;Telephone;Beno;Camp Wallace;Charles Brown;Cougars;Danny Phillips;Danny Phillips;Democrats;Dr. Anderson;Dr. Danforth;Dr. Parker;Greater Barbour's Chapel;Hurricane Carla;Hurricane Ike;Jack Johnson;Joe Abernathy;Joe Louis;John Sealy Hospital;Johnnie Henderson;Lincoln Eagles;Lincoln High School;Martin Luther King;Mike Tyson;Monsanto Chemical Company;Panthers;Professor Simm;Ray Cuny;Republican;Slave Auctions;St. Mary's Hospital;Star Spangled Banner;Television;Tigers;Wayne Johnson;Cafes;Texas Longhorn;Black Cowboys;Slaves;Clear Creek;Flavilla Bell;Grandparents;1865 Emancipation Proclamation;Colonel Granger;Ashton Villa;Waterfront;Plantations;1867 Settlement;Segregation;AKA Sorority;Baseball;Basketball;Beer joint;Black High School;Black smoke;Cattle;Church choir;Clubs;College;College aspirations;Community;Crime;Dead;Desegregated;Doctor;Entertainment;Explosion;Family meals;Fights;Flames;Football;Gossip;Hayrides;Interracial marriages;Lake Road;Movies;Precinct Judge;Prejudice;Fountain;Railroads;Ranches;Refineries;Refrigerated truck;Ship;Fried chicken;Slaves;Slaveport;Smoke;Speeches;Refrigerated Truck;Ship;Fried chicken;Slave port;Smoke;Speeches;The Settlement;Tourists;Vote;Wood stove;Carver Park;Chisholm Trail;East Beach;Highway 3;Highway 75;Texas Gulf Coast;West Beach;Willis Circle;Nasby Rd.;106 Bell Dr.;3189 Bell Dr.;Arkansas OHMS Object Text All the text from the XML (do not make public) 5.4 Interview with Vera Bell Gary (Part 1) - February 11, 2022 2022OH_AAE006 02:24:28 OHAAE African American Experience - Texas City Moore Memorial Public Library Oral History Repository moorememorialpubliclibraryohr Activism ; African American clergy ; African American college students ; African American educators ; African American neighborhoods ; African American neighborhoods--Economic aspects. ; African American teachers ; African Americans in the professions ; African Americans--Civil rights--Societies, etc. ; African Americans--Civil rights—Texas ; African Americans--Economic conditions. ; African Americans--Education (Higher) ; African Americans--Education--Texas. ; African Americans--Employment. ; African African American elementary schools ; Americans--Families. ; African Americans--Food. ; African Americans—Hairdressing ; African Americans--Hospital care. ; African Americans--Housing. ; African Americans--Interviews. ; African Americans--Marriage. ; African Americans--Military service. ; African Americans--Political activity. ; African Americans--Political activity--20th century. ; African Americans--Recreation. ; African Americans--Religion. ; African Americans--Relocation. ; African Americans--Segregation. ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; African Americans--Social conditions--20th century ; African Americans--Social life and customs. ; African Americans--Social networks. ; African Americans--Societies, etc. ; African Americans--Sports. ; African Americans—Texas ; African Americans--Texas--Religion. ; African Americans--Texas--Social conditions. ; Athletes ; Baptists, Black ; Baptists--Clergy. ; Baseball ; Basketball ; Boxing ; Children ; Civic leaders ; Civil rights ; Civil rights movements—Texas ; Education ; Education, Primary. ; Elementary school teaching ; Families ; Flood and natural disasters ; Hairdressing of African Americans ; HBCUs (Historically Black Colleges and Universities) ; Hurricane Carla, 1961 ; Industry, (Tex.) ; Interviews ; King, Martin Luther, III ; Labor Rights ; Labor unions ; Labor unions--Political activity ; Louisiana--Franklin. ; Louisiana--Jeanerette. ; NAACP ; Mental Health ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Natural disasters—Texas ; Newspapers ; Non-Violent Protest ; Oral Histories ; Public School Education ; Race discrimination—Texas ; Race relations ; School integration ; Schools ; Segregation ; Siblings ; Social reform ; Sports ; Texas City (Tex.) ; Texas City (Tex.)--Explosion, 1947. Texas City (Tex.)--Social life and customs. ; Texas--Race relations ; Transcripts ; Warton (Tex.) ; Discipline ; Clothing and dress Calvin Bell, Sr. ; Kneeland Britton ; Frank Bell Jr. ; Ollie Caldwell Bell ; Sonny Boy ; Eunice Bell ; Evelyn Bell ; Alonzo Bell ; Bustee ; Frankie Bell's Store ; Thomas Caldwell ; Dave Hobgood ; Central High School ; Katy Johnston Bell ; William Jones (Judge) ; Rev. Wally Dunn ; Rev. E.H. Norton ; Gus Allen ; T.E. Armstrong ; T.W. Patrick ; Bell Zion Church ; B.P.&amp ; A ; BAP ; Mason ; Eastern Star ; Heroines of Jericho Steve's Barber Shop ; Front Door Club ; Club Morocco ; Prairie View A &amp ; M University ; Depression ; Carnation Ball ; World War II ; Pontiac ; Army ; Coast Guard ; Maceo's ; Gaido’s ; Italians ; Model T Ford ; Search Light Inn ; Radio ; Telephone ; Beno ; Camp Wallace ; Charles Brown ; Cougars ; Danny Phillips ; Danny Phillips ; Democrats ; Dr. Anderson ; Dr. Danforth ; Dr. Parker ; Greater Barbour's Chapel ; Hurricane Carla ; Hurricane Ike ; Jack Johnson ; Joe Abernathy ; Joe Louis ; John Sealy Hospital ; Johnnie Henderson ; Lincoln Eagles ; Lincoln High School ; Martin Luther King ; Mike Tyson ; Monsanto Chemical Company ; Panthers ; Professor Simm ; Ray Cuny ; Republican ; Slave Auctions ; St. Mary's Hospital ; Star Spangled Banner ; Television ; Tigers ; Wayne Johnson ; Cafes ; Texas Longhorn ; Black Cowboys ; Slaves ; Clear Creek ; Flavilla Bell ; Grandparents ; 1865 Emancipation Proclamation ; Colonel Granger ; Ashton Villa ; Waterfront ; Plantations ; 1867 Settlement ; Segregation ; AKA Sorority ; Baseball ; Basketball ; Beer joint ; Black High School ; Black smoke ; Cattle ; Church choir ; Clubs ; College ; College aspirations ; Community ; Crime ; Dead ; Desegregated ; Doctor ; Entertainment ; Explosion ; Family meals ; Fights ; Flames ; Football ; Gossip ; Hayrides ; Interracial marriages ; Lake Road ; Movies ; Precinct Judge ; Prejudice ; Fountain ; Railroads ; Ranches ; Refineries ; Refrigerated truck ; Ship ; Fried chicken ; Slaves ; Slaveport ; Smoke ; Speeches ; Refrigerated Truck ; Ship ; Fried chicken ; Slave port ; Smoke ; Speeches ; The Settlement ; Tourists ; Vote ; Wood stove ; Carver Park ; Chisholm Trail ; East Beach ; Highway 3 ; Highway 75 ; Texas Gulf Coast ; West Beach ; Willis Circle ; Nasby Rd. ; 106 Bell Dr. ; 3189 Bell Dr. ; Arkansas Vera Bell Gary Theresa Mayfield 2022OH_AAE006 1.0:|9(6)|21(13)|31(13)|39(10)|46(5)|54(16)|71(5)|81(2)|90(3)|100(3)|114(6)|131(4)|148(2)|158(4)|167(13)|176(10)|187(4)|199(12)|212(12)|222(5)|233(4)|241(5)|257(11)|267(6)|276(14)|292(17)|301(14)|318(11)|331(17)|341(15)|350(5)|358(7)|371(13)|379(18)|393(5)|407(5)|416(11)|434(9)|458(19)|475(7)|485(6)|508(14)|522(12)|530(10)|538(15)|560(4)|566(16)|582(5)|600(7)|612(5)|622(5)|635(9)|642(19)|654(4)|672(10)|693(9)|706(6)|718(17)|727(14)|735(19)|748(6)|761(15)|774(13)|784(9)|795(8)|808(9)|817(14)|828(3)|839(13)|850(3)|859(17)|867(15)|884(7)|897(7)|906(9)|916(8)|926(18)|945(7)|955(11)|969(7)|983(15)|995(4)|1006(10)|1016(5)|1034(4)|1056(16)|1072(6)|1083(13)|1092(5)|1102(11)|1111(7)|1119(13)|1128(6)|1141(11)|1152(4)|1166(14)|1176(13)|1198(13)|1208(4)|1216(7)|1227(13)|1237(15)|1248(12)|1258(4)|1267(19)|1275(13)|1285(10)|1304(13)|1323(17)|1334(12)|1349(15)|1358(16)|1369(9)|1378(14)|1391(10)|1412(10)|1421(8)|1438(15)|1453(19)|1464(3)|1473(9)|1481(6)|1496(12)|1504(16)|1513(8)|1529(10)|1544(17)|1558(6)|1568(16)|1581(12)|1589(13)|1609(13)|1619(8)|1628(16)|1636(6)|1645(5)|1657(10)|1666(12)|1673(16)|1683(3)|1692(6)|1701(6)|1712(14)|1720(5) 0 https://youtu.be/PAyuPRBRgeI YouTube audio 0 Introduction African Americans--Interviews. 0 76 Background &amp ; Family Ties Ollie Caldwell Bell ; Evelyn Bell ; Alonzo Bell ; Eunice Bell ; Frank Bell Jr. La Marque (Tex.) ; Hitchcock (Tex.) ; African American--Families 0 https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/44c4440d462bdf672df583bc2e11beb6.jpg Picture of Ollie and Cubie Caldwell Bell 243 Family History: From Slaves to Freeman &amp ; the Chisholm Trail Calvin Bell, Sr. ; Kneeland Britton Sr. ; Thomas Caldwell ; Dave Hobgood ; George Butler Ranch ; Clear Creek ; Flavilla Bell ; General Gordon Granger ; Ashton Villa ; William Jones ; 1867 Settlement ; Katy (Johnston) Bell Slaves ; League City (Tex.) ; Galveston County (Tex.) ; Chisholm Trail ; Kansas ; Selling--beef ; Longhorn cattle--Texas ; Texas City (Tex.) ; Hitchcock (Tex.) ; Emancipation Proclamation. ; Ranching ; Ranches 0 https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/6f62d5d06ec86d12f345c14003fedcad.jpg Image of Flavery Bell, grandmother to Vera Bell Gary and wife to Frank Bell Sr. ca. 1900 https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/dca74702522b30734ce01a1a37f46cb9.jpg Calvin Bell, ca. late 19th century 511 The 1867 Settlement: La Marque &amp ; the Dividing Lines Dividing line ; Black district ; FM 1765 ; Black settlement La Marque (Tex.) ; Segregation 0 649 1867 Settlement: The Community Refineries ; 318 Bell Drive ; 106 Bell Drive ; Black Community ; Railroads 0 751 The Economic Makeup of the 1867 Settlement: After the Civil War &amp ; Beyond Ranches ; Plantations Railroads ; La Marque (Tex.) ; African American neighborhoods--Economic aspects. ; Child labor ; African Americans--Education--Texas. ; Galveston (Tex.) 0 832 The Community Grocery Store Grocery Store ; Groceries Child Labor ; Small business ; African American business enterprises. 0 https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/admin/files/show/id/75 Frank Bell Jr.'s store with Billie Bell in doorway, sometime in the 1920s. 898 Education Skipping ; Central High School ; High School Diploma African Americans--Education--Texas. ; Galveston (Tex.) ; Education, Primary. 0 1039 Frankie Bell's Store: The Community Meeting Place Frankie Bell's Store ; Highway 75 ; Meeting place Grocery trade ; Small business ; African American business enterprises. 0 https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/78d02f97189c27bc26c42b5ec41cb8d9.jpg Inside grocery store of Frank Bell Jr. Frank Jr., is standing on the right side of the image. 1163 Sunday School Picnics, Hayrides &amp ; Baptisms Church ; Picnics ; Baptisms ; Hayrides ; East Beach ; West Beach ; Ice Cream ; Fry Fish 0 1331 Black Schools &amp ; Segregated Times La Marque Colored School ; Colored ; White ; Western movies ; Public fountain ; Movies African Americans--Education--Texas ; African Americans--Segregation 0 1459 Bell Zion Church: Sunday School &amp ; BYPU BYPU ; Bell Zion Church ; Minister ; Church African American clergy ; African Americans--Texas--Religion 0 1516 Movie Theater: Buzzard Roost Movies ; Buzzard roost 0 1567 Growing Up in a Small Community - Kinfolk Kinfolk ; Bells ; Hobgood African Americans--Social networks 0 1628 Influence of the Church Growing up Church ; Playing hooky ; Whipping ; Spanking African Americans--Religion ; African Americans--Social life and customs ; Discipline of children 0 1716 Being Raised in the Settlement: Taking Care of One Another Apologize ; African Americans--Social Conditions Discipline of children ; African Americans--Social conditions--20th Century ; African Americans--Social life and customs 0 1832 Strong Discipline Talebearing ; Mother ; Dad Discipline of children 0 1953 Most Memorable Pastor Growing Up Ministers ; Reverend Dunn ; Reverend Norton ; Pastor ; Preacher ; Baptized ; Highland Bayou Dinners and dining ; Baptisms ; African American clergy 0 2160 Social Groups &amp ; Young People Competitions ; Prairie View ; Math ; Spelling Prairie View University 0 2296 Trials &amp ; Tribulations of School Transportation Walk ; Bus ; FM 1765 ; Nashby ; Central High School ; Highschool ; Colored Bus travel ; Galveston (Tex.) ; La Marque (Tex.) ; Transportation ; Hitchcock (Tex.) ; Texas City (Tex.) ; La Marque (Tex.) ; Pearland (Tex.) ; Dickinson (Tex.) ; League City (Tex.) ; Friendswood (Tex.) ; Brazoria County (Tex.) 0 2488 After School in the Afternoons African Americans--Social life and customs 0 2549 School Events &amp ; Summer Fun Gus Allen ; Cafes ; Barbeque ; Seafood ; West End ; Beachfront ; Waterfront ; Drive-ins African Americans--Segregation ; La Marque (Tex.) ; Texas City (Tex.) ; African Americans--Social life and customs ; African Americans--Recreation 0 2702 Carver Park Carver Park ; Frank Bell ; T.W. Patrick ; T.D. Armstrong ; Proposition ; Acres ; Prairie Galveston County (Tex.) ; Planning and design ; County Parks 0 3088 Mapping the 1867 Settlement &amp ; the Organizations that Helped the Community Grow Mapping ; 1867 Settlement ; Block ; Anderson ; Carver Park ; I-45 ; Hwy-3 ; Bell Zion Church ; Masons ; The Easter Star ; Heroines of Jericho ; Baseball team ; Kelso Park ; Masonic lodge ; Masonic hall ; Chickens ; Ducks ; Horses ; Willis Cafe ; Businesses ; Mrs. Willis ; Gas station ; Baseball park ; Front Door Club ; Dance hall ; Beer joint Fund raising ; Picnics 0 3090 Spare Time &amp ; College Aspirations College aspirations ; AKA sorority ; Evelyn Alonzo ; Birthday ; Jobs ; Work ; Dad ; Mother Prairie View University ; African Americans--Education (Higher) ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; African Americans--Social life and customs. ; African American college students 0 3616 Learning to Sew: A Mother's Influence &amp ; the Great Depression Seamstress ; Sew ; Sack ; Imperial Sugar ; Flour sacks ; Bleach ; Pattern ; Rationed stamps ; Dollar bills ; Paper bags Women dressmakers ; Depressions--1929. 0 3918 Friends, Prairie View &amp ; Dorm Life Central ; Christmas ; College ; Wardrobe trunk ; Jane ; Playing cards ; Showers ; Big Train ; Carnation Ball ; UIL ; Basketball team ; Football team Prairie View University ; African Americans--Education (Higher) ; Dormitory life ; African American college students 0 4202 World War II &amp ; the Draft Board Draft board ; Bustee ; Boys ; Service World War II. ; Draft registration ; United States. Army. ; United States. Coast Guard. 0 https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/ca5b9b6f4bf76bddcb9f042a41710931.jpg Alonzo Russell Bell in his Coast Guard Uniform, ca. 1940s 4328 The Family Car Mechanic ; Maceo's ; Gaidos ; Dealer Ford Model T automobile ; Pontiac automobile ; Automobiles--Maintenance and repair. ; Automobile dealers. ; Automobiles 0 https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/db02fea47377abf7c112d098b8d637e4.jpg Frank Bell Jr. &amp ; Sons in their Model-T Ford 4401 Getting the News Radio ; Telephone ; Search Light Inn Broadcast journalism. 0 4443 Charles Brown Charles Brown ; Church ; Church choir ; Frankie Bell's Store ; Radios Tony Russell "Charles" Brown (September 13, 1922 – January 21, 1999) ; Texas City (Tex.) ; La Marque (Tex.) 0 4587 Movie Theaters Movie tickets ; Movie theater ; African Americans--Recreation. 0 4623 The Settlement After Dark 1867 Settlement ; Teenage boy ; After dark ; Devilment ; Kids Prejudices. ; La Marque (Tex.) 0 4768 Church Culture Fans ; Church clothes ; Fried chicken ; Church African Americans--Religion. ; African Americans--Texas--Social conditions. 0 4835 First Television Money ; Mother ; Dad Television. ; Sacrifice--Social aspects. ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; African Americans--Economic conditions. 0 5032 Teaching &amp ; the New Homemakers of America Teacher ; Homemaking club ; New Homemakers of America ; State competition ; Homemaking African American educators 0 https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/6976bcaa44e72f67a27d4d7156f5cf83.jpg Vera Bell Gary during her first year teaching at Lincoln Highschool in La Marque, Texas. ca. 1946 5080 Safety &amp ; Security Lock ; Crime ; Settlement ; Doors ; Windows ; Safe ; Community Neighborhoods--United States. ; Safety. 0 5138 Disasters and Hurricanes Texas Gulf Coast ; Storms ; Rain ; Wind ; Water ; Weather ; Evacuate ; Boarded up ; Car ; House ; Windows ; Mother ; Roof Hurricane Carla, 1961 ; Hurricane Ike, 2008 ; Natural disasters--Texas 0 5275 Calvin Bell's Story Calvin Bell ; German ; Woman ; Grandmother ; Daughter ; Butler Ranch ; Children ; Desegregation ; Interracial marriages ; Law ; Prison ; Separate ; Germany ; Grandpa ; Slave port ; Slaves ; Plantations ; Auction ; Grandparents ; Branding iron ; Cattle ; Ranch ; Black History Month ; Ernestine ; Museum ; Ray Cuny ; Charles Brown ; Butlers ; Calvin ; Black Hero Segregation ; Washington (D.C.). ; Ranching 0 https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/6f62d5d06ec86d12f345c14003fedcad.jpg Flavery Bell, wife of Frank Bell Sr. https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/admin/files/show/70 Calvin Bell, ca. late 19th century https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/admin/files/show/78 Frank Bell Sr. https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/335e678e17c2593366ae93be895cbea4.jpg Kate Bell, wife of Calvin Bell, ca late 1800's 5620 The Family Doctor and John Sealy Hospital Doctor ; Sick ; Waiting room ; Colored ; Dr. Danforth ; Midwives ; Dr. Anderson ; Dr. Parker ; James Parker ; Lake Road ; John Sealy Hospital ; Wards ; St. Mary's ; Hospital ; Medical school Segregation ; African Americans--Hospital care. ; African Americans--Hospitals ; Galveston (Tex.) ; Hospital patients--Care. ; Human experimentation in medicine -- ; Human experimentation in medicine--African American 0 5832 The 1947 Texas City Disaster April ; Professor Simm ; Bell ; Lincoln School ; Pledge ; Star-Spangled Banner ; Explosion ; Ship ; Monsanto ; Chemicals ; Elementary school ; Escape ; Blowing up ; Jumping ; Seventh grade ; Eighth grade ; Elementary ; Black ; Flames ; Smoke ; Sirens ; Emergency wagons ; Parade ; Fire ; Amulances ; Emergency vehicles ; Medical ; Refrigerated barrack ; Dead ; Plant worker ; Daddy ; Lime ; Blankets ; Smelling salts ; Identify ; Identified ; Camp Wallace ; Camp ; Smell ; Burning ; Dead bodies Texas City (Tex.)--Explosion, 1947. ; Disaster ; La Marque (Tex.) ; Texas City (Tex.) ; Morgues 0 6628 Civil Rights Era: Segregation to Integration Desegregation ; Freedom of Choice ; Separate but Equal ; Lincoln ; Junior high school ; Phased out ; Negroes ; Homemaking ; Teachers ; Kids ; Ms. Gary ; Fights ; Attitude ; Solution ; Reports ; Bombing ; Riots ; Boycotts ; Tigers ; Cougars ; Lincoln Eagles ; Panthers ; Highschool ; Integrated ; Student enrollment ; Whites ; Schools ; Blacks Segregation ; African American educators ; Public School Education ; School integration--United States. ; La Marque (Tex.) 0 7008 The Vote and the Politics of Voting Voting ; Voter registration ; Voting ; Danny Phillips ; Wayne Johnson ; Democrats ; Ballot boxes ; Precinct judge African American voters ; La Marque (Tex.) 0 7166 Black National Figures Message ; Protestors ; Abernathy ; Boycotts ; Cities ; Voting ; Water hoses ; Dogs ; Fight ; Shot ; Leader ; Race ; Opportunity ; Education ; Joe Louis ; Mike Tyson ; Oprah Winfrey Martin Luther King, Jr. (1929-1968) ; Civil rights movement--United States--History--20th century. ; Race discrimination 0 7373 Unions, Johnnie Henderson &amp ; the Role of Women in the Movement Johnnie Henderson ; Unions ; Black ; Chief ; King ; Sonny Boy ; Bustee ; Polls ; Barbour's Chapel ; Voter ; Vote ; Educate ; Danny Phillips ; Bell Zion ; Church ; Speeches ; Support ; Meetings ; Rules and Regulations ; Worker ; Workers Labor Unions 0 7734 Final Thoughts Republican ; Vote ; Democrats Texas City (Tex.) ; La Marque (Tex.) ; Hitchcock (Tex.) ; Galveston County (Tex.) 0 7974 Future Outlooks for the Community and the Hope for the 1867 Settlement Waterfront ; I-45 ; Growing ; Schools ; Plants ; Tourists ; Population ; Baytown ; Goose Creek ; Pelly ; Settlement ; 1867 Settlement ; Arch ; Hwy 3 ; Lincoln ; Historical Society ; Memorial ; Bell Zion ; Freeways ; Ovepasses ; Hwy 1765 ; Palmer Hwy ; Historic District ; Tourists ; Build ; History Texas City (Tex.) ; La Marque (Tex.) ; Hitchcock (Tex.) ; Dickinson (Tex.) ; Economic development. ; Revitalization 0 7978 Conclusion 0 Oral History Vera Bell Gary grew up in the West Texas City / La Marque area in an area known as the 1867 Settlement and is 96 years old at the time of this interview. She is a descendent of the Bell family, one of three families of freed slaves who settled in the Settlement in 1867. She talks about her family driving cattle with the Butler Ranch out of League City, up the Chisholm Trail. She describes living in the Settlement, and what it was like growing up the youngest of five children. She talks about her parents, grandparents and great grandparents, and their accomplishments made to the community. Gary tells how her mother taught her to sew, and how they made clothes out of sugar bags. Gary attended A &amp ; M Prairie View University and describes how nervous she was during her freshman year. Gary received a degree in Home Economics and became an educator ; first at Lincoln High School, then at La Marque High School during the time of integration. She was in her first year of teaching during the 1947 Texas City Disaster and describes what it was like in the aftermath. Gary shares stories about helping members of her community. She talks about getting every eligible person out to vote and her time as a precinct judge. Gary shares her thoughts about the 1867 Settlement and what she would like to see for its future. C. GARY: Good afternoon. Today is Friday, February the eleventh, 2022 and we are in Texas City, Texas at the home of Ms. Vera Bell Gary. This is Charlesa Gary. I’m working with Theresa Mayfield, the Local History Librarian with Moore Memorial Public Library on the African American Oral History Project, initiated by Moore Memorial Public Library to aid the African American community in building the historical narrative and to fill in the gap of the historical record. Today, we have the distinct pleasure of interviewing Ms. Vera Bell Gary of Texas City, Texas. Vera, I’d like for you to introduce yourself, starting with your name. Your name? V. GARY: My name is Vera Lee Bell Gary. C. GARY: And you were born in. V. GARY: I was born on December the sixth, 1925 in La Marque, Texas. C. GARY: Okay, and Vera, if you can tell us a little about yourself. V. GARY: I am ninety-six years old. And La Marque is my home. And I have done quite a few things and travelling, --and come back to La Marque to live. I have, --my father’s name is Frank Bell, Jr. He was born in La Marque, Texas. And my mother’s name is Ollie Caldwell Bell. She was born in Hitchcock, Texas. Frank and Ollie had five children, three boys and two girls. [Ed. Note: two boys and three girls]. Frank Jr. [Ed. note: Frank III], we called Sonny Boy. And we had Eunice, the next oldest girl, then Evelyn, and Alonzo, which you called Bustee. And Vera ; I’m Vera. I’m the baby of five. C. GARY: Okay. And how was your relationship with them, growing up, with your siblings? V. GARY: Well, when I look back on it, it was beautiful. We played together. We worked together. We laughed. We did everything as a family. La Marque was a small community. And uh, we just stayed in our home ; did everything, made our own toys, kites, and balls. And we just had a very good relationship. The oldest children looked out for the younger ones. And I rebelled sometimes because I didn’t really want to be bossed by my older sister. But she felt really responsible for me, because my mother worked during the day. Not out of the home, but a small community grocery store that they had. So, she worked at the store during the daytime. We went to school. My dad worked at a refinery. So, --and we heard about the community, I can’t go and let you know how it was, uh, why it was so small when (------(?)(?) left. So, it was, uh, founded by the folks, --same men who were my relatives. It was uh, Calvin Bell, Sr., Kneeland Britton Sr., Thomas Caldwell, and Dave Hobgood. They were all slaves on the Butler Ranch, which was in Clear Lake then, Clear Creek. It’s League City now. The Butlers owned slaves. They had the largest slave plantation in the area, Galveston County. And they owned more ranches than everybody else. They raised and sold Texas Longhorn cattle. So, all of their slaves were cowboy slaves. And four of the main cowboy slaves were known to ride the Chisholm Trail. The Black cowboys were used to the Chisholm Trail. Was responsible for rounding up all of the cattle on the various ranches, counting every head. That’s what Calvin Bell was ; he was the tallyman. And he branded every one before they set out on the Chisholm Trail to Kansas, --to the market. That’s where they would sell their cattle. So, I am from the Calvin Bell family, which were slaves, --one of the Butler slaves, and related to the others. Okay, now, I’m going to tell you how we got to be kinfolk, because they were all up there in Clear Lake, in the containment camp, where they stayed-- C. GARY: --Okay, so, they, and I didn’t mean to cut you off. I was just going to say, so, is this where the family was originally from? Your mother and your father came from Clear Creek, down to Texas City, or to Hitchcock? I know they settled, both families settled. One in Texas City, one in Hitchcock-- V. GARY: --Yes. My mother and dad were freed slaves. [Ed. note: Gary’s parents were Frank Bell Jr, and Ollie V. (Caldwell) Bell. Frank Bell Sr. and Flavey (Flavilla) Bell were Gary’s grandparents, born after Emancipation. Gary’s great grandparents were Calvin Bell (a freed slave) and Katy (Johnston) Bell a German born immigrant]. It was after the 1865 Emancipation Proclamation. But my grandfather [Ed. note: Calvin Bell] was of the slaves on the Chisholm Trail. And he was the father of my grandmother, Flavilla Bell. So, as I said, these, uh, --during that time, it was not La Marque. It was just prairie, because the slaves stayed on the plantation. And then in 1865, when the slaves, I understand, were really free in 1863. [Ed. note: Slave Emancipation happened in 1865 in Texas] It took them two years later before they got the word that all slaves were free. And this Colonel Granger came down to Galveston to Ashton Villa and he read the proclamation to the slaves. They were free. So, at that time, we had a county judge, his name was William Jones. He knew the slaves would be leaving the plantations ; needed a place to stay. So, he set aside 230 acres. Only land that the slave could buy in. And besides having the money to pay you, they had to get letters from the slave master that they were trustworthy, and they were hard working. They were devoted people, and they wanted land to raise their families. So, with that then, the slave could buy into the 230 acres. Other than that, they could not. So, the 230 acres is what we call our Settlement. And that is the 1867 Settlement today. But, at that time, it was just Highlands. It’s been through several different names ; Highlands, went to Campbellsville, Buttermilk Junction, then La Marque. And the postmistress of La Marque, Lady Ambrose was the one that named it La Marque, because La Marque should officially --this “la marques” stood for The Place. So, this is why we have La Marque. And now La Marque is Texas City. It was unincorporated land. Texas City spread out, so they incorporated all of the west side of La Marque. And so, that’s Texas City. The dividing line is [FM]1765 ; La Marque on one side, Texas City on the other side. But when I was coming up as a youngster, the West Side was the Black people, the Black settlement. And the highway was the dividing line. All on the other side was, uh, the white settlement. And during segregated days, everybody in the Black settlement stayed in the Black district. You didn’t go out of it unless there was something that you couldn’t buy. But they were self-contained, and they built their own houses, churches, schools, --what they needed, the business places. And the only time they would go out of their settlement was to buy something and come back in. So, I wanted to be able to tell you, --see where I came from. And I can remember, back there, uh, during segregated days. And that’s La Marque. C. GARY: Let me ask you, Vera-- V. GARY: --So, so, uh, that’s where we got the word La Marque. C. GARY: I was going to ask if you will walk up through a day in your settlement, it the Settlement, as a child. Do you remember anything about your house, such as your address? Do you remember your house address? V. GARY: We didn’t have no address, no mail, no post box growing up. C. GARY: What street was it on? V. GARY: My early childhood, we had roads, trails. C. GARY: So, it was-- V. GARY: --We didn’t have streets. They came later in my teenage, --but that was, --we played out there in the road. We didn’t just name roads. It was a new community. And it began to grow from slaves from other plantations since they were freed. They came to Texas City to work at the refineries. They thought they had struck oil. Paying good. So, they bought land in the Settlement, and they stayed there. So, the population began to grow. But at that time, they did not have, uh, street names or house addresses. We just knew where everybody lived because it was probably a couple hundred people that made up the community. C. GARY: And Vera, you were born there, is that right? V. GARY: I was born right there at the house that’s there. Now, it’s 318 Bell Drive [Ed. note: should say 106 Bell Drive]. It used to be 106 Bell Drive [Ed. note: should say 318 Bell Drive]. But it’s, uh, 318 now. [Ed. note: should say 106 Bell Drive]. C. GARY: Now, what was the racial, --you said it was the Black community? The Settlement was all Black. Can you give us an idea on the economic make-up of the neighborhood? Was it working class? Or was, you know, I know you said something about the refineries, but at that time— V. GARY: They were working there, and they worked on the railroads. They farmed. A few had ranches. The slaves that left the plantations and moved in, carried on the same type of living, but they were getting paid for it. They still worked at the ranches until they got started on their own. And from the master or whoever it was, and he would pay them. They weren’t working for free. They saved their money to buy the land to build their houses. And they stayed in this community. This was their place. La Marque, --that was theirs. Uh, we, we didn’t have any violence. We had a meeting place. My dad had a community grocery store [Ed. note: Frankie Bell Store]. And all five children worked in that store. We didn’t have to work out otherwise. And I remember how it was, --we’d be seven, eight, or nine years old and I was using the cash register, because I followed the older ones. What the older ones learned, I learned too, through observation and helping my mother and dad. They would stack soda water cases, --call it soda water in those days. It’s pop now. (V. &amp ; amp ; C. Gary laugh) But they stack these cases, --they were cases that would come in, and we would stack them to be tall enough to the counter, --to reach the register. So, I worked in the store. I ordered groceries for the store during the period, years after early childhood, into, uh, teenage. And we went to school. We walked to school. We had one school. It was one big building divided into three large rooms. They had the first and the fourth grade in the same room. But each hour it was first grade, second grade. So, I was sitting near, --my brother was in the second grade. I was in the first. We were in the same room together. So, I would help him get his work done, because I would listen to what the teacher was saying. So, I was promoted. They call it skipping. I don’t think they do it anymore. They said, “Skip?” Yeah. And so, I was skipped a grade. I finished high school at sixteen, which is pretty young. And at that time, the old wooden school only went to the tenth grade, first through the tenth. We had to go to Central High School in Galveston for the eleventh grade if you wanted a high school diploma. Someone met some of the kids. It’s a lot. It’s crazy to work. Some went to get their high school diploma. And always set down at the table, anytime, breakfast table, lunch, supper, whatever you be calling it. It was instilled in us at home ; we all eat as a family. And it was instilled in us over the table that you’re going to finish high school. There was no if you wanted to or not. We were told what we were going to do. So, we did it, because it was the right thing to do, to obey your parents and respect everybody in the community. After high school, you’re going to college. What you need is education. Prepare yourself to be self-sustaining. Be independent. And you can raise your family. You can get a good job. You can get a lot of the things that you don’t have now. C. GARY: So, let me ask you, --working, it sounds like your father, your mother and your father, instilled early, those values in you when you were working in the store. I want to digress for a moment. You know, you told us about your schooling and how it was. How important it was for the, --your parents to make sure that each one of you were educated. But I want to digress back to the store, just a little bit, and to some of the social gathering that went on around the area, in the Settlement in those earlier days. So, with the store— V. GARY: --That’s quite interesting, (C. Gary laughs) because that brings back to me. (C. Gary laughs) My father’s store was called Frankie Bell’s Store. C. GARY: What did you sell in the store? V. GARY: He was known as Frankie Bell. Okay, so that was his store. So, everything was sold there. He was responsible for getting electricity down, telephones and what have you, because they had a, um, --I’ll call it a beer joint on Highway 3, which is right down from the Settlement, it’s in the Settlement. And they had electricity from Highway 3. [Ed. note: used to be Highway 75]. So, we tapped in. My father tapped in and brought the electricity down in the community. So, they tapped it. So, his store was the meeting place. The menfolk, on weekends, when they weren’t at work. Every Saturday night they would come to Frankie Bell’s store and it, --menfolk only, and they would sit around, talk about what was happening in the community. What happened on the job or what happened at the refinery. They lied some, and then they stretched it. But this was the meeting place. Okay, this was where people would get all of the news. No newspaper at that time, something like that. Okay, now, that was family as far as, at home. As far as the church, the church would give picnics, Sunday school picnics, and big baptisms. The church would baptize everybody. My dad had a flatbed truck, and they would give the hayrides for them. The church would give a fund raiser for the church. So, they would meet at Frankie Bell’s Store. And it was always on the weekends, on a Saturday. And so, he would put hay on his flatbed truck, and we used to, -- I could drive in that truck without a license and go across the causeway to West Beach. We had to go to West Beach. We couldn’t go to East [Ed. Note: East Beach was for whites only]. It was segregated. So, we had to go down there. And the ladies of the church would serve their cakes. They made their cakes at home. But they would make ice cream where you churn yourself with an ice cream maker. And they would fry fish, or whatever, and hot dogs. Then came the show. The menfolk wanted to surprise the kids at the edge of the water because the ladies weren’t going in. But as far as I can remember, not at any time that my mother had been in the water. I can’t remember. But Evelyn [Ed. note: Eunice] was the oldest girl, she was responsible, so she had to see that we were safe in the water. In the community we had playgrounds. At school we had a playground. And the sports, --I took part in basketball. I was the forward. I was short, but I thought I was pretty good. (Laughs, coughs) My sister, Evelyn, --she was on the basketball team. So, we would travel to different schools. Okay, we would have picnics. All told, whatever gatherings they had, people that didn’t have a car, and this truck, Frank Bell’s truck, was the one that would take them. Wherever it was they wanted to go, whether it was school or church. If it helped the community, up there, he did it. C. GARY: Now, what was the name of your school and where was it located? V. GARY: It’s located right behind me, where I am now, on Nashby Street. It wasn’t Nashby, but it was, uh, right off of the main road. It was, uh, the wood building and um, as I said, it went to the tenth grade. C. GARY: And what was the name of it? V. GARY: La Marque Negro School, no Colored, it wasn’t Negro. La Marque Colored School. And all around the public places they would have, uh, --say at the restaurants, that we didn’t go to, because the colored on the outside. You could go to the backdoor, order what you want. And the cooks were Black. They would bring it to the door, and you get it and go. You couldn’t go in there and sit down at the table and eat. You couldn’t go to the drug stores. You couldn’t ask for water at the public fountain because everything was marked colored and white. They had the signs up there, so we knew. Even at the movies. We got to be teenagers ; we could go to the movies. And that time, on Saturdays, they had a lot of western movies. And we liked westerns. And they had a continued series. They had series one, so, we had to come back to the movies, and they said to see the second part and then, uh and I was interested and wanted to see the second part. So, we, went on Saturdays after we finish our work. And um, they’d go to the movies on a Saturday. Not every Saturday. But when we went to the movie, we would go on Saturday afternoon, because Sunday morning we were in church. We had to go Sunday School. We stayed at the church for eleven o’clock service. We were right back there after dinner. The evening BYPU (Ed. Note: Baptist Young People’s Union). I don’t know whether you know that name really or not, but we called it BYPU. And then we had a night service. Our minister did not live in the community. He commuted. He had another church outside of Houston. And he would alternate. He wouldn’t come every Sunday. He would come one or two Sundays out of a month. And he would come. And when we would get baptized, all the children went to Bell Zion Church. C. GARY: Okay. And that was located in the Settlement? V. GARY: That was in the Settlement. C. GARY: Okay. And the movies, --if I could just ask you about the movies. Where was it located at? V. GARY: The movie was in the white neighborhood on Oak Street, now. (Ed. note: Lamar Theatre) That’s the name of it since we got the names of the streets. It’s still there, but it’s run down. We could not go downstairs. We’d go upstairs. And here, outside entrance. We would go in there, buy a ticket in the foyer, buy popcorn, use the restroom, but other than that, you got to, --you went upstairs to see the movie. We used to call it the Buzzard roost. (laughs) That was something. it’s funny now ; it wasn’t so funny then. But that’s, that’s just the way it was living in a small community. Everybody knew everybody ; knew the children. The same children went to the school, and the churches, and on the playground. That we came from, --half of the people were mine think the Bells, the Brittons, and the Hobgood's are all kinfolk. But there’s a breaking point there. Some of the Bells married into the Hobgood family, some didn’t. Some married outside the family. So, --but everybody had a part in raising the children. It’s a different generation, I swear, looking back on it now. These kids don’t always go to church or make it through school. So many things out there enticing them, distracting them, televisions, telephones, and all of that. See, we didn’t have any of that. C. GARY: So, do you think, it sounds like then, the church was a big part of your growing, your rearing, you’re growing up-- V. GARY: --That’s right. We had to go. They only had one church, so everybody went to that one church, and you sit right at the same place every Sunday. So, if that spot was empty, we would know. This here is where, --is this child sick or what? So, they would find out where this child is. There wasn’t no playing hooky because you would catch a whipping when you got back home. They call it whippings. Then they went from whippings to spanking. And now, they don’t even spank. C. GARY: So, the church played a big part in your life. V. GARY: A major part in teaching the children religion, how to love each other, how to respect each other. That there’s a God, and we can learn. And they had classrooms, --before my time, but they had classrooms in this old wooden school, before they opened the new school in this community. But these, these four families are the ones who found this and named it La Marque. And I’m out of the, --one of the, --two of them, Caldwell and Bell, because my mother was a Caldwell and married a Bell. And both parents were slaves (Ed. note: Reference to great grandparents). C. GARY: How, how was the neighborhood as far as your neighborhood, --the Settlement, um, play a part in your raising as well? You know, I know a lot of times back in the day, they talk about how, if you got in trouble at somebody’s house, you got whipped there. You also got whipped at home. But how much, or what part did the neighborhood play, as a whole, being able to raise you, so that you could, you know, be successful as you grew up? V. GARY: Mm-hmm. Well, as I said before, these four families were so closely knit. And they all had large families. And, uh, we just take care of each, --we just knew each other. They could, --any one of those older persons could correct a child, regardless of whose child it was. If this child was going wrong or doing the wrong thing. And you know, they didn’t do real bad things, against their training. But little kids would fight, you know. And naturally, they would tease each other, bullying, what have you. But any elderly person, parent or not, could correct the child and stop them from doing what they were doing, and tell them “I’m going to tell your parents on you.” So, if they didn’t feel comfortable spanking you, you got a spanking anyway. Plus, you had to go and apologize to that person. “I’m sorry, I was wrong.” “I was doing such and such.” If we didn’t, there was another spanking. (laughs) C. GARY: Well, my question is, did you ever get a whipping from anybody other than your parents in the neighborhood? (laughs) V. GARY: I, I did not, myself. Uh, my mother kept us so close together, the five children. Almost none of us got spanked. And we were always sort of good, behaved, and not get it from anybody else. And my daddy never, as I can remember, spank me coming up, because mother was the, --she was the disciplinarian. She was a good homemaker in raising the children. And this is why the children were so successful because she was a good disciplinarian. And whatever she told my dad, that’s when he would step in. It was mostly with the boys, --whipped them. The mothers whipped their girls. But as it was, we knew, and we would tell each other, --we’d try to get, --“I’m going to tell, I’m going to tell mother on you.” Just to make them mind. So, I feel I got away with more than the older ones did. Because I followed them. I was raised along with them. So, I grew up a little bit before my time by being the baby. But they didn’t have to nurse or baby me. Because I was the baby, they were on me like the rest of them. C. GARY: Well, let me ask you about your pastor. Let’s go back to the church. You were saying that he commuted. What would be your, --the most, I guess, the most memorable thing that you remember about him? What stands out the most in your mind about him? V. GARY: Well, I had two. My very first was --------(?)(?)and after he passed, we had a younger, Rev. Dunn. [Ed. note: Reverend Norton]. And I can remember, he was very good, too. He was a young minister, but he was the one that, uh, built the new church that burned down. So, but my first pastor that I can remember, when he would come in on weekends He would spend the weekend, and um, the families would take him in their homes. That was his weekend. He’d go here this weekend, next weekend he’d go ---------(?)(?). And we would always have chicken (laughs), that was the choice meal, because the preacher, the preacher liked that. So, we going to have chicken and all of the sides, and then dessert, and what have you. Then pastor had to rest after dinner. Now, we didn’t eat along at the table with the pastor ; we ate outside. Mother and daddy and the pastor, and they would have their talk, what problems to work out. But we weren’t allowed to sit there among the adults at the table and listen to adult conversations. So, when the preacher would get the news from the mother and dad, then that’s when he would bring it to the attention of the people in the community. Everybody was welcome. Your business was everybody’s business. So, he baptized me and he, he was the one, in Highland Bayou. Highland Bayou is a park now. C. GARY: Rev. Dunn baptized you? Rev. Dunn? [Ed. note: Rev. Wally Dunn]. V. GARY: That was Rev. Dunn, the first one. [Ed. note: V. Gary is referring to Reverend E.H. Norton]. C. GARY: That baptized you? V. GARY: Yes, Rev. Dunn. [Ed. note: Reverend E.H. Norton]. It was on Sunday after church. And a few of the church members would meet at the church, after church service. And they would go to the bayou and that’s where whoever had joined the church with you, --yeah, I guess, there were maybe eight or nine of us. It wasn’t each time you joined you go. We would wait until we got enough to baptize, because that was a ceremony in itself. You went into the water, and you had the white sheet. You were dipped. But the minister, he was determined to ----(?)(?), which was more or less to keep the families, the families together. C. GARY: Were there any social groups for the young people back then? V. GARY: Well, not groups, not that I can recall. Uh, at school, we had competition in classes. We had competition between our school and other schools. Like you know, like sports, basketball, spelling, math, and we would go to whatever county contest first, and whoever won out in the county would go to state, and that was at Prairie View. So, after it all, I liked math. And I was always in the math competition. I never won first place at Prairie View. I made it to Prairie View, but there was some kids, some country kids who were smart. But somehow, I never was able, --I might miss a question, a problem or, uh, something, but somebody always would get the first place. And then there was spelling. It’s a spelling bee now, but we had spelling in classes, our classes. And those students were going to get in competition with the county schools. (** audio interference edited out here ; conversation starts with clarification of reverends’ names***) C. GARY: It’s Reverend Wally Dunn. And see, I’m sorry, because I know Rev. Dunn and I knew where he was, but I was like, is that in the Settlement? Because I knew it was in the Settlement, but— V. GARY: It was E. H. Norton. C. GARY: Okay, the first one was E. H. Norton. Norton-- V. GARY: --E. H. Norton. They had ministers before him, but in my early childhood, that’s the one that baptized me and ran the church. And then he passed, and Rev. Dunn took over. C. GARY: Okay, so, Rev. E. H. Norton is the one who baptized you. V. GARY: Yes. C. GARY: And then after he passed away, Rev. Wiley Dunn took over. V. GARY: Right. C. GARY: Okay. V. GARY: Right. C. GARY: Okay. So, that makes sense. Now, just so we know or get clear on, how did you, as far as schooling, how, what was your transportation? Your mode of transportation to school? I know. I know in my mind, where the school was on Nashby, where it used to be, given Nashby as a location and the Settlement being across the [FM]1765, but how did you make it to school? How, what was your mode of transportation? Did you, did your dad take you? Did you ride a bus? Did you walk? V. GARY: We walked. C. GARY: You walked to school. V. GARY: Everybody walked. It was in a, within a mile of school was right in the Settlement you know. So, we walked. But when we get to the tenth grade, we had to catch the highway bus, alright, from here to Galveston, and made stops in La Marque, okay? And either your parents had to provide you transportation or you moved to Galveston and live with a relative, or somebody and attended school. I lived with a business partner of my dad’s. C. GARY: And that was for tenth? V. GARY: Five days a week, then I’d come home on the weekends. C. GARY: So, that was tenth through twelfth grade? V. GARY: Eleventh and twelfth grade at Central. C. GARY: Okay. And that was at Central High School in Galveston? Okay. That’s what I— V. GARY: --The only Black high school, in the state of Texas, was Central. It was the very first. C. GARY: So, I heard you say that the bus came from Houston and made stops. So, are you saying that all around this area, everybody, because it was the first Black school, that it was made up of people from everywhere? All the Black, the colored people went to Central? V. GARY: Those who wanted to, yes, in the county, in the county. As the uh, we went to Galveston. There was Hitchcock, Texas City, La Marque. I can’t recall any Dickinson kids. There may have been a few. But those three major ones went in to Galveston. And some of the League City, Dickinson, Pearland. Pearland is in Galveston County, right? Friendswood, they’re not? C. GARY: It’s, uh, that’s Brazoria, I think. V. GARY: They went to schools closest to them. Alright. And the kids, from Bolivar, across the ferry came over to the Galveston school, because we had a very few Blacks lived across the ferry, over there. Well, most of them were Mexican. C. GARY: Well, now, you said, you went Monday through Friday. If you, when you, you said that you stayed with one of your father’s business partners. What did y’all do after school? What was, what was the life, I guess, your’ life, what was the like after school? What did you do? Did you hang out with friends-- V. GARY: --You mean when school was out. C. GARY: Yes, in the afternoons-- V. GARY: --The weekends? C. GARY: No. In the afternoons. V. GARY: No, we stayed at home. We didn’t play with and go visit anybody. We didn’t go anywhere. We stayed home. After you came from school, you got out of your school clothes and put your work clothes on, and work clothes was jeans. Now, jeans carry you everywhere. It’s not for work anymore. You can go to a formal and they have jeans on, depending on how it’s made and has decoration on or whatever. It says it’s acceptable. C. GARY: Now, did you have any school events during that time as a high schooler. Did y’all have dances or anything like that? And did you go to them? V. GARY: We did. They had them in Galveston, but we didn’t go. C. GARY: Gotcha. V. GARY: That’s with transportation from parents and what have you. But, uh, we, we were very quiet, quiet. Kids were very quiet. And um, actually, during the summer months, we’d ride, --we would go to the beach, --West End. The Black families that, --Gus Allen family, owned some property on the beachfront, on the waterfront, and they had cafes, and we would go down there to the cafes and eat and what have you. But, uh, see, it was open then, uh, and now, --afterwards, after, I would say like that, he opened his cafe but segregated it. But it’s desegregated then, we could go to some of the other places, drive-ins and other places, barbeque places had seafood. But most of the time, they would go down there for the seafood, because they had some good seafood restaurants and good barbeque down there in Galveston. And uh, they really had nothing for you to do in La Marque. La Marque was, uh, Texas City, --we quiet. It was a nice place to raise your children, young, after high school. But for the young adults, you go out the house, you come back, you really didn’t have nothing to do ; marry, start your families, and things of that nature. We, --education, --quite a few out there, quite a big number in the population that went to school. Blacks were, --when you go get to education, you go to school, or you go to work. There wasn’t no staying at home. C. GARY: Well, now, I noticed you said there wasn’t a lot to do. Did y’all have parks back then? Did you have playgrounds, and did you go out to the park at all? V. GARY: Carver Park. C. GARY: Okay. V. GARY: Was the first and the one and the reason they did, and I decided to tell you my daddy’s business partners, Armstrong and Patrick, they were Galveston, Black businesspeople in Galveston, and they, uh, went in business with my dad because he knew everybody here. And they were in real estate, so they formed a corporation of three men, did— C. GARY: --And what were their names again? V. GARY: Bell, Patrick, and Armstrong. C. GARY: And the full names? V. GARY: Yes, the full names, --Frank Bell, my dad. T. W. Patrick, Galveston, he was a postman. And T. D. Armstrong, --he has he is probably down there now, his kids. Yeah. But those three men formed a corporation, and they bought that twenty-five acres out there at Carver Park, because the kids had no place to play but, in the street, in the road. So, in order to get utilities down there at Carver Park, they, they, uh, made a proposition. See, Patrick, my dad was just very, very, --he was a worker. Patrick, uh, Patrick was a postman. He saved money, he was sort of the financier of the three. And Armstrong was a teacher, in Port Arthur, he came from Port Arthur, he taught school. C. GARY: What was the name of the corporation that they formed? V. GARY: Bell, Patrick, and Armstrong, BA&amp ; amp ; P. Bell, Armstrong, and then Patrick. Those were the three men. Okay, and they propositioned to the County of Galveston, the commissioner. We have twenty-five acres down here, and the kids don’t have no place to go, to play but in the street. They have the county park in Dickinson between Walter Hall, but we couldn’t go there. A county park, --but we, --Blacks couldn’t go there-- C. GARY: --So, Blacks were not allowed? V. GARY: So, the proposition, uh, --if you buy the twenty-five acres, we’ll buy twenty, we’ll give you five. So, they donated it. That Bell, Patrick, and Armstrong donated five acres and sold the twenty, and they got electricity. That’s, that’s Carver Park. C. GARY: Okay. V. GARY: That’s our land in the Settlement. C. GARY: How old, how old were you around that time? V. GARY: Oh, I was, I was grown. C. GARY: Okay. V. GARY: (coughs) With Carver Park, yes, because I can recall my sister working at, working over in the summer program when she was out of the college. And she had a job, but she, but she liked money, and she worked for it. And she was, uh, --write census, take the census around here [Ed. note: Eunice]. And uh, let’s see, she worked the summer recreation program at the park. And as I recall, the only thing I was voted was for precinct judge for fifteen or twenty years, but I was precinct judge since I’ve been married over a year. Precinct judge over all of the voting elections and whatever they did. That was not segregated. C. GARY: Can you tell me a little more about Carver Park, just to get a clearer idea on it. So, they went, as a corporation, the three men, (V. Gary coughs) Mr. Patrick, Mr. Bell, and Mr. Armstrong, and they talked to the city commissioners about doing that with the park. Do you remember, or can you recall what was that original park? What did it look like? You know, what did it have? Did they have a building? Did they have places like things for the kids to get on, like the merry-go-round? Tell me about the first, the beginnings of that park? Do you remember how it was? And how long did it take for them to be able to get it-- V. GARY: --Well, it was a prairie, -----(?)(?). They, --Galveston County, I think, when I look back on it, was some place, small southern places. Galveston County was pretty cooperative to the Blacks. They are respectful of them because they knew their place, and where to go to, how to ask, and what to ask for. They knew that we were in town, but the three men really got to be strong in the county and friends of the commissioners, and the mayors and what have you, because they got to become taxpayers. They bought the property, they bought and built houses on Texas Street Park and Anderson. C. GARY: Which is a— V. GARY: That was PAB [Ed. note: BAP] bought, built, and sold. C. GARY: Okay, now, that was surrounding Carver Park. That area surrounding Carver Park? V. GARY: That’s right. That’s the 1867 Settlement. See, the 1867 Settlement goes from Highway 3 --that’s up there, down to, toward 45 (Ed. Note: Interstate 45) and Westward [Street]. You stop at Westward and make a right. Go to Anderson. Anderson is a four-block suburb from the park. You make a right from Anderson and go back to Hwy 3 --in that. It was like that. Now the park, Carver Park, was in this 230 acres. Bell Zion Church was an outlet for children to go to, but Masonic Hall was on Bell Drive. Initially, the Masons, the Eastern Star Heroines of Jericho, --lady’s groups for adults, and they would do things for the community. Help the community grow. Raise money for it --giving picnics, and selling dinners, and whatever they needed funds for. They didn’t have to go beg for it. They worked for it, and so they donated. And so, everybody had, (laughs) had chickens, and horses, and ducks, and whatever, every family did. C. GARY: So, as, as the years went by, then social event, or the social place, it wasn’t so much the store, but it became the Masonic lodge as the years went by then. Is that correct? V. GARY: As the years went by from the store, yes, the Masonic Hall was more or less a professional building. It wasn’t so much for socializing, the park was. And they had a baseball team. Every summer they had a Black baseball team. C. GARY: What was their name? V. GARY: I can’t think of them. Mrs. Grant could. She was --her brother played on a team. And he got to be real good, and all. And they would go down on Sundays and play at the Kelso Park. C. GARY: How old were they? V. GARY: Kelso, Kelso Park, he built right off of, do you know where Hi-Low [Ed. note: retail business] is now. And Food Rite-- C. GARY: --Okay. V. GARY: In that right there, he owned all that property in there. He built a dance pavilion. And also, uh, what else he did? Oh, the baseball park, --softball, no baseball, baseball park. And immediately straight across the street from right down over here, had a park and a gas station. Black people businesses were cafes. They would have a solid breakfast. You’d go there to Willis Café and get breakfast. Mrs. Willis cooked us a breakfast because she loved us. C. GARY: What was the name of the restaurant? V. GARY: Willis Café. C. GARY: Okay, and Mrs. Willis, what was, do you remember her first name? V. GARY: I can’t quite guess ; something tells me it was Eleanor [Ed note: Elnora]. But it seems like it started with E. C. GARY: Not sure? Yes. V. GARY: Not sure, but it was right across the way where the, uh, the braiding people are? Hair-braiding people are. C. GARY: Okay, right next to the Steve’s-- V. GARY: Steve’s Barber shop. C. GARY: Not too far from the Front Door Club. Willis Circle. V. GARY: Right across from there. That’s the guy. Willis Circle. He had a wooden dance hall. They would have live bands coming in, and they would give dances. They had a jukebox at the time where you drop your money in the jukebox and select your numbers, and dance. And with the restaurant, --so the people here had their club Morocco. It was not so much eating, but drinking, --beer joint. There were clubs, uh, that we weren’t allowed to attend. The youngsters. The teenagers. You had to be grown and accepted to go to one of those places. C. GARY: Well, I’m going to talk a little bit more on, uh, you as you were growing up. What were your, --it’s a few different things, you know. What did you like to do in your spare time? But also, about, you know, and you’ll go into that, but then also into your college aspirations. What were you thinking? I know that you’ve already said your parents said it was either work or school, but during that time back then, what was, what did you do in your spare time? And then, be thinking about your aspirations, you know, giving us some information on, you know, those types of things. V. GARY: Well, there weren’t very many places to go for entertainment. We would go to Galveston. I joined the AKA sorority down there, a group of Black educated women. And the menfolk had the Alphas and what have you. So, we had out outlet there. The kinfolk here, like my sister and brothers, not so much the older ones, but like Evelyn and Alonzo. The three next to me, Evelyn and Alonzo, were born eleven months apart, so they were like twins. Every June they would have the same age. Then in July she would have a birthday. So, we were, --we, we were children together, plus, across the street there were cousins. Okay, where we would go? We had a car. We finished high school. Go on to Prairie View. Attend Prairie View [Ed. note: Praire View A &amp ; amp ; M University]. and came back to work. Got jobs. Got a car. We would go into Galveston. The menfolk, the boys were working at the plants, but the girls working in school. So, we would load up the car, (laughs) we’d get five or six in a carload of just us. And we would go into Galveston to the restaurants and sit around at the tables eating, drink beer, and dance. Most of the places had jukeboxes where you could dance. But we were not allowed to do that here, because they had ---------(?)(?) and other places here that we couldn’t go to. We had a certain level, teaching school, we had certain places that our parents saw that we didn’t attend. So, I mean, you, --we could do the same thing, but we had to go to Galveston to do it. We had to get out of La Marque. So, they had placed like that. It was, it was, uh--. And then you had friends that you made in college you would visit. And I liked to sew during my spare time. I wouldn’t do too much. I made everything I wore, and my family, but we wouldn’t do too much taking in sewing for other people for a living ; nothing like that. It would probably, you know, friendship sew their garment-- C. GARY: --Who taught you how to sew? V. GARY: And that was during the spare time and make some spare money. But we missed some things growing up. I guess I’m talking too much, I forgot to tell you about the Depression days. C. GARY: Well, I was asking, I was actually asking, because I know that you are an excellent seamstress. Who taught you how to sew? V. GARY: My mother. C. GARY: And you went on to teach that? V. GARY: And you’d be surprised. I was making clothes out of flour sacks and sugar bags. Did I tell you this story? Everything came in big bags. The flour sacks in that day and Imperial Sugar is written on sacks, you may see some of them today, --antique. But sometimes you’d catch a thread and rip. Catch one thread and ripped the whole piece loose. So, when we would get maybe a fifty-pound, fifty-pound sack of flour or sugar and it had to be emptied there into drums with lids on them. Then we would bleach, --my mother would, in an old black pot out in the yard with bleach. And bleach that color out of there, --the print. And it come out white, real pretty white. And we would wash them. And she took paper bags and newspaper and cut patterns. And she would use something you wear and would cut your pattern. And she made all our clothes. Boys and girls too, she made that. I learned how to sew from her. C. GARY: So, what, --how old were you when that happened? V. GARY: Oh, I was, I was some, I guess I was maybe ten or eleven maybe. C. GARY: Hmm, so then— V. GARY: --Because I was working at the store as a little thing, I can remember that. And then we would go in the house, --the housework was --everybody had a duty, and in your spare time you would work puzzles or whatever your favorite things to do. Uh, you’d pursue your hobbies. But one thing I wanted to mention, before I get too far, uh, it was in the Depression days. Was that in the thirties? The Great Depression? C. GARY: What? V. GARY: And, and uh, it was something along in there. I don’t know what year it was in. The, um, the people didn’t have no jobs. Uh, they had no money. The economy was broke. Therefore, we were rationed stamps, say to buy food with. Clothes to buy. And I was telling you about our mother making all our clothes. We weren’t buying. We weren’t taking our dollar bills to go to a store and buy ready-made clothing. She made them. Bought trims, bought patterns, and things. After we got older and then started teaching some. Because I mentioned it, I’m making it one of my favorite things and like that. Some like the cooking part of it. But, uh, that’s where I learned, from uh, paper bags, or those bags that we would, and grocery bags. And she would get a pencil and a little ruler and sketch out the size of the patterns and we would piece them together. I would never buy clothes. She would -------(?)(?) and sew bear in mind. But, yeah, that’s how I learned how to sew, from my mother. C. GARY: Well, let me ask— V. GARY: --We each sewed sacks. We whited them. Cut the pattern. And wore those clothes. C. GARY: Well, let me ask you this, did you have friends back then? Good friends? V. GARY: We, we were mostly to ourselves. It was just like the same buddies that you had down, that you carry around with. No, we did nothing until we got older. But growing up, no. No. I went to Prairie View after I finished Central [Ed. note: Central High School in Galveston, Texas]. I went to Prairie View. My daddy probably didn’t think I was going to stay. My daddy probably didn’t think I was going to stay, because, when you went, you only came home at Christmas and when school was out, other than that. And I was sixteen, and I didn’t want to go away and leave my mother, and my other sister Evelyn who was in school, college. There were three of us in college at the same time. But, my dad, -- I’ll never forget the day they put that black trunk, it was a wardrobe trunk, and all my clothes and everything, they put that back in the car, and took me to Prairie View. And he came back home and told mother, and said, “I don’t think Vera’s going to stay, because she cried from here (laughs) to past Houston, almost all the way to Prairie View. She dried up except when we got up over that hill, and she saw this college down there, she started all over again.” (laughs) And she said, “After we got the cap and the gown, and robe and everything, I'd be ready to see.” She just fell out. (laughs) And so, I just kept going and never been there because that was the purpose taking me to school. And so, when he got home, he told mother, he said, “I don’t think she’s okay.” (V. Gary and C. Gary laugh) But I did. I had a roommate in my freshman year that was tall. From Dallas-Fort Worth. Jane. And that was some fast girl. And I’m just sleeping in my room, and scared. But they, they were card players. They’d sit up and they wouldn’t give me any lessons in playing cards. And I was out in the hallway, because it was a barrack-like. They had rooms lined up ; they had showers. Awful showers. Everybody go there and use the shower because the girls, -------------(?)(?). And the trunks would be lined up in the hall, because the rooms were that small, and they had bunk beds. Two bunk beds, four girls to a room, upper and lower. And it was like that too, because my bedmate was on the bottom. Everybody got there a few days before I had and picked out their room. And uh, we was assigned a room, but the beds, they weren’t. So, I stayed there, --go right there and sleep on the top. Her name was Vera, too. She was from Fort Worth. Her mother was a schoolteacher. We called her Big Train because she was huge. She was a big ole girl, but young, --had the prettiest young face and smile. But her body was big, so she got the bottom bunk. (laughs) So, I can remember that. At school we had the basketball team. We had the football team. And we would go to the gym. But uh, but the, uh, UIL with all of the Texas schools, and they had their finals. And as soon as you out of class, you’d go over there and sit in the bleachers, everybody cheering the games. And we looked forward to that. And then we had our dance, the Carnation Ball. And we had guest speakers come in. Renowned people who were specially published Blacks. And they would come in and encourage so we would graduate. When I was at Prairie View was a time for me when all of our boys left to go to World War II. Eighteen years old, --draft board. You had to sign up whether you passed or go or not. So, the draft board here was Houston. So, my brother Bustee was right along with me in college because he was a year older than me. Therefore, he signed up at the draft board and they took him. But it was a car that used to sell vegetables down at the wharf. Galveston is where the ships would bring in at the wharf and they would distribute among the stores. My daddy would go down there buy vegetables for the grocery store before the war. Well, dad got this, --this guy knew my dad, and he was on the board, draft board. So, when Bustee came through, and he had the application and Bustee would sign up with the Army, which was a good thing. (laughs) Okay, the guy said, “You don’t want to go into the Army”, he said, “You go to the Coast Guard.” Give you back to the Coast Guard. He said, “You go home and be back here about two weeks. Go home, talk to your mother and dad to be because we’re shipping you out.” And he went right down and went in the Coast Guard. It sure was good for him because he was lazy about walking, and drilling, and all that. So, that was part of my college days. We didn’t have the boys there, because all of the young boys were going in the service, but they come back in my senior year. C. GARY: Now, let me ask you, because you said your dad drove you to Prairie View. V. GARY: Yes. C. GARY: What kind of car did y’all have? V. GARY: We had something like, --he, he, uh, he liked Pontiacs. And he would buy his cars from a dealer here in La Marque, Italian, --Dego, or whatever, Dego not the name, because they, they have the money in Galveston County. Seems like they drove in Galveston, Maceo’s, or Gaidos. There were Italians, I think. C. GARY: And when it broke down, who fixed the car? Did y’all have a mechanic within the Settlement, or— V. GARY: No, this time was early cars. Our first car was a Model-T Ford. I don’t know who worked on that car ever, --if it ever broke down. I never known it to break down. But that was my early day. My oldest brother, we got a picture of, --we have it, --the Settlement. ****(Transition from session one to two occurs here) C. GARY: Alright, so, let me ask you, just going into, Vera, just a little bit into, as far as news, how did y’all, how, at the time, did you have a television set, or was it more of a radio back then? And around what year was this that you may have had that? V. GARY: Okay, when you mention radio, I was, --we was the only ones in the neighborhood, growing up, that had the radio, telephone and all, because I told you when the Search Light Inn first opened, my daddy did some tap on telephone. Okay, so we was the first. We had the radio. Oh, I had to have been about, in my early teens, because Charles Brown was born in Texas City, but his stepmother [Ed. note: Mrs. Mattie Brown] lived in La Marque. And he was practically raised in La Marque, right around the corner, --hollering distance from my house. Uh, and he would spend the summers with her. And during the war, he didn’t go to war, but he went out to California. I don’t know whether he classed as F-4 [Ed. note: 4-F], I don’t know, but what happened, but he was not in active service. He got in California and that’s when he got famous. When in Texas City, he played for the church choir, and he sang. And it was just a gift. He never took music from anybody, but he could play a piano. And he would come by when he got famous out there in California. When he come home to visit, he would always come visit my mother. And we had the, uh, we put the windows up. We didn’t have no air conditioner, never. People would come to Frankie Bell’s Store, he’d be, --Charles Brown would be over there playing the piano and singing. And they would stop, and before you know it, you got a congregation outside there, the windows, listening to Charles Brown. And the same thing about the radios, when they had the fights and things, a whole drove. Joe Lewis was a champion, I think, you know. And whenever he would fight, and we would get the radio and the people would congregate. The menfolk, because they liked to smoke around Frankie Bell’s store and standing outside the window and listen to it over the radio. No television at that time. Now, I can remember that as a, uh, a young teen. C. GARY: That actually brought me back to the movies, when you talked about that. How much were the tickets back then for the movie theater? (laughs) V. GARY: I have forgotten. Age got that part of the brain, (laughs) --the mind. But I think maybe twenty-five cents. Children didn’t have any money. Parents didn’t have much, but each shared so the children would have a little social life. And we would all go together. We didn’t go one by one. We would go to the movies in groups. C. GARY: I see. V. GARY: You weren’t caught out of the Settlement by yourself and not after dark. C. GARY: Oh, I see. V. GARY: Especially a teenage boy, after dark he would be stopped and asked, “Where you going? What are you doing out here?” La Marque was quite prejudiced. But as they say, you know your place. This is the place. You stay over here. “What are you doing? What are you over here for?” They sighted you out of the Settlement, you were over there after some devilment. C. GARY: I see. V. GARY: Getting in trouble. And they would stop it. So, we had no problems, everybody understood. And the Black parents were really shook up. Right out of slavery, you know how things went. So, they built the community, and their families. And you raised your children like little slave kids. You kept your kids together. You went out on the farm and worked, picked cotton or whatever, but you came back home. And mama took care of all of it. It was very much on that order. It wasn’t that we were all free to go and do it as we please, but we knew. Well, you know, I’ve been through, to be ninety-six, that’s almost a hundred years ago. A lot, I’ve forgotten a lot. But I can remember what happened back there, but I can’t remember yesterday, here. But, uh, things have really changed. I’ve seen history made. That’s to say, you went from the wood stove, we used to cut wood. The boys would chop the wood, bring, keep it stacked up. And bake the best biscuits on that wood stove. You needed a damper you had to stop. Do you remember that? C. GARY: Yes. V. GARY: Um, from school, you would do, --you had to the live through it. But we had the pot-bellied stove, and a chimney, and the damper that you turned to adjust the amount of heat. That was what we would keep heat. That was our way of heating. And our air, in the summertime, put those windows up and prayed we got a little good breeze. And get you a paper, or a newspaper, or anything and fanned me, --the breeze. And they gave fans away at Church. When you were in church, you would fan. And every Sunday you would have your fan and go to church, because it would get hot. We would dress. We had church clothes. And uh, that, the adults had hats, purses, high heels, stockings. They were fully dressed if they were going to go on a trip, on a train, and such. You go fully dressed. Dressed down. You may have a little shoe box of fried chicken, (laughs) some slice of bacon in there for lunch because you had to sit behind the black curtain. You couldn’t go to the dining room and eat, so you took your own food. That’s traveling on a train. And so--. C. GARY: Well, let me ask you, when did you all get your first television set and how old were you at the time? V. GARY: I can’t say, but it wasn’t long after they started using television at the houses. So, whenever televisions were put on the market, someone could buy, --we bought it because my parents tried to have everything at home that they could afford. They sacrificed a lot of their pleasure, their money for their children, because they didn’t want us to ask nobody for nothing. If you want something, you go and ask for it. Don’t you go out there and ask somebody for nothing. Couldn’t take their money if they were offering you some, --“No, no thank you.” If we were going out visiting on Sunday, mother cooked dinner and we ate before we left so, we wouldn’t have to accept food or drinks or anything at the house where we were visiting. We’d go there full. We said, “No thank you.” C. GARY: Well, do you know about, do you remember how much they may have paid for that television? Did you ever hear, hear them talking about it or anything? V. GARY: They didn’t have television games. Now, now that was twenty, thirty years ago, huh? I was-- C. GARY: --It’s been longer, you were, at least about the seventies or so. V. GARY: --I remember we gave my mother, after I was grown and married, we gave them, and my daddy had passed, she was living by herself, we bought her first television. We surprised her. And we almost got a surprise, because when we brought it in to her, and all of us were together for her birthday, she broke down and started crying. All of us were crying. (laughs) She was so happy. So, I feel she had a lot built up. Um, how these kids, my kids are doing this, and we made it possible. They, --we made her happy over something. My dad had a stroke. He died suddenly, okay. So, he didn’t have a chance to really enjoy the kids as adults. But my mother did. So, but, uh, she had a bad heart. And we said we would never surprise her again, because we don’t want, --because it seemed like she, --as soon as she sat back, she kept taking a deep breath, (laughs) too, too good a surprise. We’re not going to surprise her no more. But that was growing up as a young adult. And it’s been successful. I taught school thirty-six years. I enjoyed teaching. I was cheerleader sponsor for a while. I taught homemaking. We had a homemaking club. They called the New Homemakers of America. It was a state club. You know, Prairie View was a state school. It was a college. It wasn’t a university. And um, we had a state competition, and I would take my kids. And someone would have a wool, --make it yourself with wool. And it would be, --my kids were in high school, and they had a fabric shop here (laughs). C. GARY: Well, we’re going to talk about that in just a moment. V. GARY: Yes. C. GARY: But I want to ask you a little bit more about some of the older times, as far as, did you all, because these are things that come to mind as well, you know, it seems like it was really easy going, really easy living back then. Did y’all every lock your doors? Did you lock your doors at nighttime? V. GARY: No. (shakes head, no) C. GARY: I see. Did you go-- V. GARY: --No, we didn’t lock no doors, our windows were up. And you just ---------(?)(?). We didn’t have no crime. C. GARY: Within the Settlement, then. V. GARY: Nobody breaking in. No. Everybody at home. Everybody had something to eat. C. GARY: So, you felt— V. GARY: --And a place to stay. C. GARY: So, you felt safe within your community. V. GARY: Very definitely. Very definitely. You couldn’t pay one of those fellows to go break in on somebody. Everybody knew each other. C. GARY: And now, with that being said, do you remember some of the things, because we live on this gulf coast, the Texas Gulf Coast. We deal with a lot of hurricanes. And a lot of bad weather, inclement weather. Tell me anything as far as do you recall any disasters? One of those was, I know, what, 1961 Hurricane Carla. I know that— V. GARY: Carla. V. GARY: -- at the time you were grown but do you remember any other disasters or tell me about Carla. V. GARY: Carla was the worst at that time. And they’ve gotten worst since Carla. But, uh, remember it, because Carla packed a lot of rain and water, wind and water. And we didn’t have— C. GARY: Where did y’all go at that time? V. GARY: I always stayed home. C. GARY: Any shelters or anything, or just in your house? V. GARY: No. No, I tell you what, I’m getting mixed up because it was Ike (Ed. Note: Hurricane Ike was in 2008) after Carla, (Ed. note: Hurricane Carla was in 1961) we went to Huntsville. I think we went there two, two storms, to my girlfriend in Huntsville, getting out of Galveston County, --we’d evacuate. But when we were children, before we started evacuating, we stayed. We had a two-story house. And we stayed in that house. We boarded up the windows and we got the water in the house and food and everything so we wouldn’t have to go out. But I can remember my mother saying, “Now if it gets too bad, like it’s going to blow the roof over, we’ll go to the garage and get in the car”. It takes a powerful wind to blow a car over. So, that was, --and we had this double garage and the car in the garage. So, you go in the garage and get in the car until it blows over. Now, I can remember that, but other than that, it wasn’t so bad that we couldn’t stay in the house. C. GARY: I see. V. GARY: We went through that. And I can remember, my grandparents, they’re just across the street from us. And my grandmother was the daughter of Calvin Bell. And Calvin Bell was the one that married this German woman. And she, he was a slave on the Butler Ranch, and she was a cook and, for the containment camp. But they did it. They lived together. They had seven children. Four boys and three girls. And when the, --after desegregation (Ed. Note: Emancipation) and they bought land in the Settlement, then they were told they could not live together because Texas Law said no interracial marriages. So, they would have to separate. They didn’t. They stayed right there together. They raised their children. So, they made another attempt. They told her, and said, at that time, no women was sent to prison, and they sent her to prison for two years because she wouldn’t leave her family. This Black man with these little Black children. And she came back and came back to him. So, they told him, they, the government, the officials at the time, “Follow the law. Then, if you don’t separate, we’re going to send you.” And he didn’t go because he said he didn’t know she was a white woman. But anyways, she moved out, one hundred yards from his house. She took half of the children. There were seven. He had, --oh she had three or something like that. But she moved right down the block, across the street, but was out of the house with him. That’s the only thing that shut them up. Because they couldn’t get a marriage license. It was against the law. So, they just had to do it this way, but it started as slaves. Because she was a domestic slave of Germany. She wasn’t accepted as American. So, that happened. Not as much in Galveston County, but you go to some of these states, South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama. And see, Grandpa and them came from Arkansas. And how they got to Galveston, was a great slave port. And they would bring slaves from those foreign countries, shackled down on these boats. And they come down the coastline, and they would stop at the various places and the slave owners, who owned the plantations that wanted to go. They would auction the slaves off at these ports. And they would buy their slaves and take them back to the plantations at the end of it. A lot of them, their names were changed to the port, I mean, to the master’s name. I didn’t know whether they came by Galveston or not, but they came by way of Arkansas. So, that’s the ----(?)(?) trace so far for my grandparents. But the Butlers, they all in that containment camp. And this, during -----Ernestine,--so when they named the kids –see Ernestine --I hear about Calvin married her, they had kids, a ranch after they bought land in the Settlement. And he raised cattle, and he got a branding iron and recorded it. And that branding iron now is in Washington, D. C., at the museum (Ed. Note: The Smithsonian Museum). And I have pictures of it there. But he was the one. And Calvin is the one I showed you the picture of him in that bedroom. And I said, “Well, I know this man. Charles Brown’s on there”. Ray Cuny, uh, he was outstanding, outstanding negro during those times. And I was, I was surprised and put a call in to Angela. And she was out here staying, and I told her ---------(?)(?). I asked, “When did they get this picture, because I have the history, Calvin’s history if they wanted some more for Black history month, and there’s a picture.” But nothing else. It just, --I said it, “Black hero.” And I was surprised. C. GARY: Now, let me ask you this, because I, it sounds like some really good history, you know, it’s my history, too. But I want to know about during those times, going back to those times, do you remember ever going to the doctor when you got sick? What happened? How did the families take care of them? Or how did you get there-- V. GARY: --The family took care. If you were mildly sick with a cold or running around barefoot and step on a rusty nail, or --often they took care of that at home ; families did. But if they were sick enough to go to a doctor, it was segregated. They had a Black, colored waiting room, about the size of a restroom, about four or five people. Yeah, we went. We had Dr. Anderson here. And we had, uh, Dr. Danforth delivered me. Those doctors, right there. We had midwives and we had --doctors would make home visits with that little black satchel and come to your house and treat you. But if you were able to go, you had transportation, or what have you, they would go there. We used that Dr. Anderson, --Dr. Parker. My favorite doctors. But we had a Black waiting room. C. GARY: Okay. And Dr. Anderson— V. GARY: They were good doctors. They were good doctors. C. GARY: What was Dr. Anderson’s full name? Was it, wasn’t Beno, was it? Wasn’t Dr. Beno was it? V. GARY: Beno? I know his son’s name was Beno. I don’t know if he was a junior or not. I would have to have somebody look. Anderson was a Beno? I’m not sure. And then James Parker was in the corner down here at Lake Road. C. GARY: Okay. Now, we’re just going to move forward. Uh-huh. Did you have a, you had a revelation? I thought you had something that you— V. GARY: I was going to say we had John Sealy. John Sealy Hospital. And they had wards back then. They didn’t have rooms. They had wards that were segregated for negros. Great big wards. And the beds lined up down the side of the wall with a curtain around it, --wood floor. And um, the nurses would come to the ward and take care of them. And when they needed them, they would call out “Hey, a basin”, or they would let somebody know they were in trouble. But they didn’t have all this electrical stuff at that time, years ago. And the people, (laughs) it was all, “If you want to die, you go to John Sealy.” I said, “It’s a, a medical school. They’d practice on you. They’d hold classes (laughs).” Said, “Don’t go to John Sealy.” It was -------(?)(?) negros, but I guess there was a lot that believed it. But that’s the only hospital we had, was John Sealy. Uh, lady, their friend’s St. Mary’s [Hospital], but we had to go into Galveston, but that was for serious medical problems. C. GARY: Okay. Now, I want to go ahead and just move forward into, uh, the, into the disaster of 1947. If you could give me more information, or just tell me about your experience then. You were grown at that time, so, uh, what do you remember? Give me your recollection of that. Were you here at that time? V. GARY: The disaster? C. GARY: Yes, uh-huh. V. GARY: ’47 Disaster. C. GARY: Were you here at that time? V. GARY: It was my very first year. It was in ‘47. I uh, let’s see. What month? I can’t think of the month of the disaster. C. GARY: April. V. GARY: It was April. Okay. No, because school was going on. I had just started my first year of teaching. And then we had a program. Eight o’clock the bells would ring. Professor Simm had the bell that would actually ring. Alright, that’s eight o’clock. That means come inside. Okay, so, you go inside, and you go in the classroom, and you take your seat. And then that was, uh, later. Wait a minute now. I’m getting it confused now. That’s when I was a child when he rang the bell. We were at Lincoln School, my first-year teaching, when the disaster happened. It uh, I had just started my first-class devotion --is where you come in, you call the roll, and then over the loudspeaker, the intercom, everybody had to say the pledge, make them sing the star-spangled banner, make the announcements, and then there was fifteen minutes. Then you go on with your classwork. But that’s okay. I was there. It was during that, --right after that first period, the explosion went off, the first one with the ship. And the kids said, “Oh, Miss Bell, what was that?” I said, “I don’t know, but it’s pretty loud. It sounded like it was here in the building.” And then everything seemed to be quieting down, so I went back to check my roll with my students. And the big one went off. That was the plant. The ship, they ain’t never said, that had chemicals in it, Monsanto [Ed. note: Monsanto Chemical Company]. It really destroyed some of the building. The windows’ panes were glass, were falling out, because the whole wall was windows. And the kids were jumping out of the windows because --they opened up to the outside, anyway, because to get into the building, it was a long hall, but they had front doors. My room was to the right as you go in, and the elementary school was to the left, elementary grades. Okay. So, it was so loud. The acoustics out of the ceilings that’s falling. Children started running. There wasn’t no good escape. Ran out the door. Other classes --was dangerous. Other classes were coming out of the doors, too. Everybody thought, I guess, the building was blowing up, because of all this stuff falling. And it was just like the classes out of their rooms and stampede each other, somebody’d fall and a kid would walk across them, because we didn’t have but one door to get out of that building. The town custodian had not opened that back door, leading to the cafeteria and to the playground. It was still on the chain with a locked on it. So, we only had the front door. And all of the schools, the high school and the elementary had to come out. That’s why they were jumping out the windows, the larger children. So, and they, that was from the seventh grade. Because I had seventh and eighth grade children’s studies. So, elementary was first through sixth on the other end, and seventh and eighth was down on this end. We got outside and the whole sky was black. You could see the flames leaping up to the black smoke. We were right there in the trees. We couldn’t leave the campus because it was school time, the parents were at work and not everybody at home and you still had to be responsible for these kids. The superintendent called, Professor Simms told them to dismiss school ; let everybody out. Everybody can go. But by then, the sirens started running, --the emergency wagons. And they were coming. Baby, they were coming just like a parade. One right behind another one. It was just siren, and siren, and siren. There were people running in the streets. They had left their homes in Texas City and ran all the way to La Marque trying to get away from whatever it was over there in Texas City. It was just like the whole city was on fire. We left the school at one, and our house was right around the front of the school. So, we went on home. So that’s when I put my purse down, went into the store, and started working. We used the Frankie Bell store. Okay, helping out because the people were hungry, some of them had no money, just what they were in. Some of them were dirty from the fallout. It was very, very sad. And so, at that time, my daddy had retired from the plant, but his brother wasn’t. They weren’t letting anybody into Texas City, because of the number of the ambulances at that, --the emergency vehicles, the medical people. Camp Wallace had those barracks over there with the, --I mean, troops training. It was uh, closed at the time, if I can recall. Because they had a refrigerated barrack that they were bring the dead people in, and they were lining them up. I know because I went there to see them. We lost two of our renters. And the renter right next door of where Michael’s house is? Her husband was a plant worker, and he couldn’t get out. This was two or three days later but my daddy didn’t want me to go there and see that and I begged him, because he was carrying the people back and forth. And I begged him to let me take one of those trips and take them over. And he’s telling me what to expect. This view barrack, it was refrigerated, the room was, where these dead people were lined up with lime on them and blankets, army blankets over the top. So, you had the blankets they gave you to put around your shoulders and smelling salts. And you had a nurse and another person, I don’t know who the other person was, because two went in, because a lady and a man to go in. They would, --they raised that up at your head, that blanket, so you saw the face to identify if it was yours or not. But if it’s not yours, they close, they go to the next one until you identified. We never did identify, given the trips that my dad made over there. And I went there one time, and I didn’t want to go back no more because that was enough to see. Plus, on the way back, I almost got hit by an ambulance was running with the, the sirens on, but it was going west to the camp, and I was coming home bringing these people. And it just got into my lane. It looked like it was headed straight to me. I pulled over and it was just a bare miss. But he was, --his sirens on and everything, but I didn’t see him until he jumped out. And it was close. I told him, no, no, it’s too dangerous. I don’t want to drive over there, because I almost got hit and it would have killed us. C. GARY: You provide a very vivid, detailed, uh, experience from that. What comes to mind for me is, when you were leaving the school and you describe the, the sky, did you smell anything then? Did you smell? What was the, what was smell in the air? V. GARY: It smelled like something was burning. I mean, I can’t say like meat or nothing. C. GARY: Just like a flame, or like something was burning. V. GARY: Smoke, a lot of smoke. C. GARY: Okay, and how about when you went into the, uh, into the refrigerated area, did it smell like death in there? I’m assuming it did. What— V. GARY: --It had a different odor. C. GARY: But did that, did the smelling— V. GARY: --There were the dead bodies were lined up in this room? C. GARY: Did it help with the stuff in your nose? V. GARY: I guess so. I guess that was to keep you from fainting or something. What do you call that stuff? I can’t think of the name of it. C. GARY: It probably, --it depends on what they were using to put in your nose, you know, because people use a lot of different things. Some people use tobacco. Some people use, um, I don’t know, it’s just different things. I know tobacco was one of those that they’ve used before to put in your nose so to kind of keep down the smell. And it’s just like the police officers with the dead bodies that are decomposing-- V. GARY: -- It had a name. I can’t remember the name, what the name was. But we didn’t need it. And the wife was, uh, accustomed to seeing high hopes that she would at least have some closure. He got killed-- C. GARY: --Never did? V. GARY: Never did find him. So, they claimed that she did at last. The only way they would pay off was you claimed a body. And whether it was true or not, I don’t know, because there was no will or nothing. But it was, it was awful. Texas City was a wreck. It just totaled, --blew that city away, almost most off of the map. It was a long time before anybody could even, ---------(?)(?). After a while they started letting them go in, the property owners. But it was a long while before just, --you couldn’t go down there sightseeing and digging around. It was closed to that. C. GARY: Okay. V. GARY: But it was bad. It was a lot of deaths. And the, the sirens, you could hear them in your sleep. They constantly ran, day and night. C. GARY: Well, we’re going to move onto, I don’t know if it’s any better, but we’re going to move onto the civil rights time (laughs). Um, so tell me, what was it like being an African American in Texas City during civil rights, the civil rights era? V. GARY: Well, we didn’t have many frictions. But at first, when they told me I would have to go to the uh, --because the schools were desegregated ; Lincoln would be closing. And they’re opening in homemaking at the white junior high school, that was in ‘68. So, I was encouraged to go down there, and I didn’t want to go. I didn’t want to leave my kids. But they said, “Well, in a couple years, Lincoln was going to be phased out, --everybody be gone.” So, I went down there in ‘68, to the white school, first time. And they had a few negroes, because at this time they had freedom of choice. And they tried that to keep them separated. And then they tried, uh, separate but equal. And this Lincoln was built from the last while. Lincoln was the last new building to keep us down there. Because we didn’t have an auditorium, --we had a cafeteria, not an auditorium, like. So, but the, --they were friendly, who I had to work with ; two other homemaking teachers beside me. And, uh, they were very friendly and comfortable and helped me adjust. The children, I think my kids accepted very well. We had one incident that I can recall. One of our girls came and told me, “Ms. Gary, she cut my, uh, fabric.” I mean the sewing they had, --the _____ girl. So, I said, “Oh no.” And I said, “__.” I called her and I say, “Why did you cut her fabric?” She said, “Miss Gary, said I was standing there trying to talk to her and ask her something, and she never, never, --she was ugly to me.”_____ was this Black girl. [Ed. note: portion redacted due to privacy]. So, she didn’t start no fight or nothing, she just cut that girl’s fabric. And I said, “You don’t do that. That’s just terrible and I’m going to have to report you.” So, they gave her a couple days. Her daddy came and asked me what really happened in the classroom. But I didn’t have no, --a lot of problems with the kids together, because I don’t, --I think, I think that Black children, with them knowing this is my part of the solution, too. You can’t tell me what to do. C. GARY: So, do you think— V. GARY: --What I think it was the attitude. Now, they had some fights. They had several fights, down there. Not in my room. That’s the only problem I had in my room. But uh, --it wasn’t a whole lot to make a fuss over, according to the number of kids you had to put together, suddenly. It made it, it made some difference, even in the teachers. Some of the kids complained, held up their hands and not called on, and looked over and they called them. But see, you get all kinds of reports. But basically, we didn’t have all this bombing of the schools, and riots, and boycotts, and --we didn’t have any of that. C. GARY: Okay. And that’s what I was going to ask. So, you would think, you know, I’m pretty sure it was still a little bit rough for everybody that had to be, uh, you know, integrated at that time, but it sounds like then it was a pretty smooth transition. V. GARY: It was. I thought so. Now, we give up our name. Uh, what were the Eagles? C. GARY: The Lincoln Eagles. V. GARY: For the first year, the first couple years. The Lincoln Eagles. And La Marque was, uh, what were they? Panthers? What was that high school? C. GARY: Was it the Tigers? The Tigers? V. GARY: Tigers, or something like that. C. GARY: Yes. V. GARY: What is it now? C. GARY: It’s the Cougars. V. GARY: Cougars. Yeah. (laughs) It’s the Cougars. That’s right. That’s right. But basically, they got along very well. But one thing that I noticed, and this is being recorded, so I’m not going to say anything, but I noticed that after we integrated, our, our population, student enrollment for the whites decreased. And I think it’s mainly because they moved out of the neighborhood, or the city, enrolled in other schools, and not public schools. So, now, I understand it’s predominately Black because Blacks didn’t go nowhere. The Blacks stayed. So, what, what economic reasons that you know, or whatever, I don’t know what the main thing, but it happened nationally, not just in La Marque. C. GARY: Well, let me ask you, uh, onto voting. The voting. Uh, when, when did you first vote? How old were you when you first voted? (laughs) V. GARY: I guess, I guess I might say twenty-one. (laughs) Nothing’s documented, but when I was allowed to vote, like I received my voter registration, you talking about age? C. GARY: About twenty-one you said? V. GARY: That was so long ago. C. GARY: Do you remember the first time you voted and where you were? Was it here? V. GARY: Yeah. The only place I’ve ever voted was in La Marque, because I’ve been here all my life. And, uh, Danny Phillips, Wayne Johnson, do you remember them? C. GARY: Yes. V. GARY: They were strong democrats, and they were over this area, this precinct. And they needed somebody so, they asked me if I would be a judge. I had never done it before. So, I tried it out and I liked it. Then, uh, I learned a lot. From then on, I would say, I had the keys to open and close and take the ballot boxes down to Galveston to the city to be counted. And everything is checked in and you couldn’t leave until the tally was right. Everything had to be in order, then you can go. But I was sometimes eleven, twelve o’clock at night getting back home. I didn’t like the idea because it was just ladies, --I remember would ride with me. It was just ladies on the highway coming home that time of night, and it was dangerous. C. GARY: So, you served as a precinct, a precinct judge? V. GARY: Hmm, hmm. C. GARY: And from, --do you remember the years, from what year to what year? V. GARY: It was about fifteen years. I don’t know what year to what year. To me, at that time, I think it was, --I never had a reason to remember this. It was just the thing I had to do, my duty. And I did it. They started paying for it, but it wasn’t much more than transportation. But I was doing it about fifteen years. C. GARY: During this time, who was, um, who were the national figures? That, --who was popular at that time, nationally, around the time when you served? V. GARY: Martin Luther King was really the first one that I really think got my attention. There were other protesters that would, --but he had a message. He was a young and talented, good-looking man. And you listened to what he was saying. He had his followers, --Abernathy [Ed. note: Ralph Abernathy, close friend and advisor to Martin Luther King Jr.] and that bunch. And they would go to the colleges, they would get the boycotts in these certain cities, where they were having voting problems. So, they would be arrested. They had the dogs turned on them. They had water hoses and all that. So, we would see that, because they had a television then. We’d see that, and he still had the fight in him, --for the race to make things better for everybody, not just Blacks, but everybody. And um, when he got shot, that was the most shocking thing to me. I think, I think I got kind of angry, because it was a—. we would always say growing up, “If you didn’t fight back, you a coward.” (laughs) The childhood play. But we feel he was really this aspiring young man, --until the, representing the, the race as a leader. And that’s what we needed as a group because our people, we needed this. And seemingly, he was able to get along with the persons at the time that could help him, help the race. And he made a lot of improvements. And I think, this was just a bad thing that happened. I’d say a bad thing, bad thing. But it woke us up. Because we had a lot of smart Black people who just hadn’t had a chance or opportunity to get an education because we had been held down for so long. I’d say, from slavery on. So, it was, Martin Luther King, Jr., was the one. Now, let me say, was it Joe Louis, the outstanding fighter that was coming up? Joe Louis, and then Mike Tyson. C. GARY: Jack Johnson. Jack Johnson-- V. GARY: --Were the fighters. Uh, Jack Johnson was before my time. But he was like Oprah Winfrey, gave the people a lot of hope. C. GARY: Let me ask you about the unions back then. Do you remember Johnnie Henderson? V. GARY: Yes. C. GARY: Uh-huh. I just wonder, do you, did you ever work alongside of him or anything? V. GARY: Not, not really. He is above. He was an upper person ; I would say it like that. Coming up, my dad was considered, --what would I say? He was a Black chief, or Black king of the district. He had good control, and all people depended on him, and he made a lot of major decisions, and he helped a lot of those to move up the ladder. So, his children fell in. I mostly, because Sonny Boy and Bustee didn’t take to it like they should have, --wished they would have. But they would continue with their families and working in the plants and ----(?)(?). That was, that was alright. But uh, I can’t correctly remember those dates. I have all this stuff recorded, and I have to look it up to give you the exact, if you really need it. To give you the exact year of all the dates and something like that. But uh, I enjoyed working the polls. Get to work early in the morning, and be there before seven, --would have everyone be in place. Everybody, --you work at the, -----(?)(?) then you had to watch the outside because, you know, they had rules and regulations about locations outside. So, you had responsibility, that responsibility. But I felt very confident, after a year or so I got the swing of it, and I felt, felt good over it. C. GARY: Now, mentioning some of the locals, Johnnie Henderson being one of those, because I remember him being at Barbour’s Chapel ; he went to Barbour’s Chapel. I remember him as an older adult and me being a little girl. But what, as far as with the women, you, Ann Grant, people like that, what roll did you all play as women in the, the movement back then? And the, --you know, as far as voting and the push for people to vote. You know, it sounds like, uh, --because I know from my time as a child, I seen people like you all at the forefront getting people registered, getting them in. How important was it and another thing— V. GARY: --It was very important. C. GARY: Yes. V. GARY: They’d get every eligible voter to go to vote. And not be lazy and stay home and fuss about it after it happened. They didn’t give them any way, but -------(?)(?). So, you had to educate your public, and your group, and get them to focus on who you going to have running? We still having that problem. It has not been solved. We have a lot of people, --eligible that don’t go to vote, that vote. And then they’ll tell you if you would, “No, god, I’m not going down there.” But we have a, still a lot of work to do. C. GARY: We do. I remember you mentioning Danny Phillips, uh, being with the, --and really, I think about him from the church, from Bell Zion-- V. GARY: --Yes. Yes. C. GARY: So, as far as the church, how did it tie in with the voting and all during that time? Because I know a lot of times, the different candidates would go to the churches. How important was it-- V. GARY: --Make their speeches and ask people for support. C. GARY: Yes. So, how important or what roll did they, did they play? V. GARY: Uh, they, they would be the organizers ; I suppose we would call it like that. I was just a worker. But, as far as Johnnie Henderson, making the meetings and meeting with the, the people over at the voting and whatever the rules and regulations were, they were our teachers. We respected them. They were good. They were charitable. And go to training sessions and whatever. They represented the community. And they were respected. And they would approve of the workers, --who was a good worker and who was not. Who wanted to and who didn’t and what have you. So that played a major roll year-round. Now the workers, that was a, was a regional thing. If there’s (laughs) something to vote on, and they nationally -------(?)(?), what have you. But they’re having so much trouble with the voting. I just don’t understand it now, because it’s such a small community where I was, and it’s gotten to be such a big blown-up thing. So. C. GARY: Let me ask you, because I know that you being a member of the community and doing a lot to help in the community, over your ninety-six years, what would your, --what, --give me some final thoughts as far as over these last ninety-six years. What do you see, where how far have we progressed in certain areas? What do you, what are the main concerns for you? Also, how far do you think, because, I know you have some final thoughts. And I have a few different things— V. GARY: --Well, that of course then(?)(?)-- C. GARY: --Yeah, that’s it and I’m trying to get it out, but I think you already know where I’m going in some of this. But just over ninety-six years, what do you see that still concerns. But what do you see as progress that we’ve made in this city, in this community in Texas City? And what would you like to see different? V. GARY: I would like to see the democrats get out there and work a little harder, because I was saying today, because especially Galveston County is, uh, republican. Now, democrats come strong, they’re working, they’re improving. But all in all, Texas, north Galveston County, they’re republican. Everybody in there, up there now in Galveston County offices is republican. And they’re going to get it again, if we don’t get out. I don’t know what you are, (laughs) but if we don’t get out and work together and get out of there and vote. The vote is your voice. Every vote counts. That’s the motto. And if we get enough people, democrats, regardless of race, enough democrats to get out there and try to get a better group on some of these, um, national decisions they are making. The voters are running Washington and making decisions nobody in the world would. I know, I’m not going to say no more. C. GARY: I will say this one thing, because of the fact that you said democrats. But I know, from working with you, that it’s not just about democrats, because you, you reach, you have a far reach with both sides. And I know that you would like to see the democrats, you know, come back or become stronger in the Galveston County area, but you also work with republicans as well, do you not? V. GARY: Oh, yes. C. GARY: You have a lot of friendships. V. GARY: Oh, yes. C. GARY: And there’s a lot of people that respect you and you respect a lot of them as well, don’t you? V. GARY: Oh, very definitely. I can get along with you regardless of what party you belong to. I consider that as an individual thing. And your beliefs, even though you’re democrat, you don’t have to believe everything the democrats say. And you can believe some of the things and whatever the republicans. It’s an individual thing. What you believe in. What you would like to see happen. And I just, I get so much mail, so much in the papers, and hear so much about what our parties are doing today. Until the one’s we put into office to go to Washington to represent us, now they bought out. They get up and they don’t, uh. I guess you can do so much and no more. The thing is so/so. I just don’t understand. It’s beyond my comprehension, really. I don’t know where it’s going to end up. C. GARY: What would you like to see within this area? What, what things would you like to see that you may not see right now. How would you like to see the future of Texas City? You know if I and that may be a little broad. I don’t know if I could— V. GARY: Now, Texas City is on the move. It was dead by the time they brought came 45 (Ed. Note: Interstate 45). They cut Texas City off from the rest of the mainland community, because there was La Marque there in the way of the, uh—. Texas City’s on the waterfront. Then we get Hitchcock there, and they have Dickinson on the other side. So, if you wanted to get into Texas City, port side, you had to get on [I]45 and go, you headed back to La Marque. So, we’re sitting in an ideal spot for growth. But Texas City has the plants. They have the money. So, La Marque is growing. La Marque is going to be a nice size. But I’m expecting before Texas City will let that happen, they’re going to come in and incorporate (laughs) La Marque. They already got our schools. And um, eventually, they think that because we don’t have anything to fight. We don’t have the wealth. And so, now Friendswood is our leading city, in Galveston County. Texas City has reached out and got all of that over on the west side of La Marque, plus up to Dickinson city limit. So, they, they kind of spreading out. They, they’re boxed in. They’re okay. But they’re spending money to get the tourists and the population built back up again. Texas City is a pretty city. They have pumped so much money in downtown Texas City, to, to bring it back. It’s really pretty. It’s a really pretty clean city. But still, La Marque is in their way. So, they’re going to eventually (laughs) get La Marque. So, it’s going to be a greater Texas City. Just like Baytown, --there was Goose Creek and Pelly, and other little neighboring cities, greater Baytown. You don’t hear Goose Creek and Pelly no more. So, that’s where Texas City is going, spread its wings. And they're going, --they’re doing it gradually. Financially, they are in good shape. C. GARY: Well, I’d like to also say, one last thing with final thoughts. You are, and this is where we come into the 1867 Settlement. I know you’re proud of the 1867 Settlement. You’re proud of the work that your organization does within the area. What would be, within the next five years, what would you like to see with that area there, with Lincoln Auditorium? And with the Settlement area. What would you like to see there? V. GARY: I would really like to see this, uh, Settlement identified. People know about it, and people read about it and drive around and locate it. But I would like to see an arch, or some sort of announcement “Entering The 1867 Settlement” or “Entering The Historic District.” That would be for something, that’s one way to get it. And then Hwy 3, your main arch there, “Entering The District”. Because our district is going to grow. It’s gone through hard times. Bad times. People moving away. People dying. Younger people coming in. Unconcerned people, uh, buying up property. And so, but La Marque is —. I would like to see and I’m so glad we were able to get the deeds from, to save Lincoln, (Ed. note: Lincoln High School Auditorium) [Ed. note: portion redacted due to privacy]. My concern is being a member of the Historical Society, our Mission is preservation. Lincoln is the only image of a Black school to be left. If you tear that down, that’s it. The only thing you could say that people could tell their children, “I used to go there, but it’s not there anymore. It’s gone.” ---------(?)(?). I would like to see censuses start in our district ---------(?)(?) to get the money, eventually, we will, to rebuild, revitalize that area. And we have enough planned unless I decide to do other things. Because it’s for the community. It’s not owned just by us, because it’s a community thing. And if we can sell this idea to the community to get behind us. And let’s build this school. Let’s save this school for historical reasons. A memorial for our children. Bell Zion burned down. It was one of the older churches, but they couldn’t go nowhere else. They came to their site. They’re going to have a beautiful church, but it’s going to be in the historic district. So, across the street if we get built up. And build up the historic district. Have little shops, historical shops. People moving in. All down from Houston to Galveston, they’re building. And La Marque is preparing to get the freeways, overpasses, and the main street is 1765 and Main out to Palmer. But we are sitting right at, -- I would like to see a sign on the highway for tourists to visit the historic district. The historic immortalized as something putting it where the historic district is and build it up. The new people wanted to spend money and build a town. It’s going to happen, but it won’t be in my lifetime, but it’s going to happen because we have too many new rooftops coming up in the community all around us. And we are, oh, we’re sitting right in the middle for growth. But Texas City’s going to get it (laughs). Anyway, the way I see it from where I’m sitting now, I would like to see some markers out there. If, if the 1867 Settlement ever plays down, which it will. It’s already made history. It’s in the history books, we’re trying to keep it alive. I would like to see that. I would like to see those shops there where people come in and browse. And be mentioned on in the tourist’s centers and traveling and something out there in the spot you can visit when you come to Galveston, and they use it as a stop in La Marque and look at the Settlement. I would like to have something ---------(?)(?). But it’s going to have to grow. And many, (laughs) well, people like Charlesa??, to stay in and work with the people and if we sell it to the community, La Marque can do it. The alumni could build, rebuild Lincoln I’ll assume --------(?)(?). And Lincoln is over 100 years old. C. GARY: Okay, well thank you Vera for the time that you’ve spent. This concludes the interview with Vera Bell Gary. Thank you so much for sharing your stories and being part of the Moore Memorial Public Library African American Experience Oral History Project. V. GARY: I certainly want to thank you. I’m glad Theresa, uh, what’s his name? MAYFIELD: Derek C. GARY: Derek V. GARY: Okay, Derek. I would like to thank you for considering me and giving me the pleasure to express myself and my feeling of community because this is home. This is all I know about it, live it, breathe it, sleep with it, (laughs) work with it every day. What goes on in La Marque concerns me, and I’m quite disturbed. But we are getting new directions now. We are going to clean up this crime and we are going to get this city, not only a bedroom city, where you come and go to sleep and go to work and come back, and then they leave and spend your money in another town. I would like to see business coming, and I would like to see Charlesa?? (laughs), thank you again. I enjoyed it. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, and copyrights, have been transferred to the Moore Memorial Public Library in Texas City. Parties interested in production or commercial use of the this resource should contact the Library Director at Moore Memorial Public Library. audio 0 https://ohms.texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/render.php?cachefile=2022OH_AAE006.xml 2022OH_AAE006.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vera Bell Gary (Part 1) Description An account of the resource Vera Bell Gary grew up in the West Texas City / La Marque area in an area known as the 1867 Settlement and is 96 years old at the time of this interview. She is a descendent of the Bell family, one of three families of freed slaves who settled in the Settlement in 1867. She talks about her family driving cattle with the Butler Ranch out of League City, up the Chisholm Trail. She describes living in the Settlement, and what it was like growing up the youngest of five children. She talks about her parents, grandparents and great grandparents, and their accomplishments made to the community. Gary tells how her mother taught her to sew, and how they made clothes out of sugar bags. Gary attended A & M Prairie View University and describes how nervous she was during her freshman year. Gary received a degree in Home Economics and became an educator; first at Lincoln High School, then at La Marque High School during the time of integration. She was in her first year of teaching during the 1947 Texas City Disaster and describes what it was like in the aftermath. Gary shares stories about helping members of her community. She talks about getting every eligible person out to vote and her time as a precinct judge. Gary shares her thoughts about the 1867 Settlement and what she would like to see for its future. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2022OH_AAE006 Subject The topic of the resource Activism;African American clergy;African American college students;African American educators;African American neighborhoods;African American neighborhoods--Economic aspects.;African American teachers;African Americans in the professions;African Americans--Civil rights--Societies, etc.;African Americans--Civil rights—Texas;African Americans--Economic conditions.;African Americans--Education (Higher);African Americans--Education--Texas.;African Americans--Employment.;African African American elementary schools;Americans--Families.;African Americans--Food.;African Americans—Hairdressing;African Americans--Hospital care.;African Americans--Housing.;African Americans--Interviews.;African Americans--Marriage.;African Americans--Military service.;African Americans--Political activity.;African Americans--Political activity--20th century.;African Americans--Recreation.;African Americans--Religion.;African Americans--Relocation.;African Americans--Segregation.;African Americans--Social conditions.;African Americans--Social conditions--20th century;African Americans--Social life and customs.;African Americans--Social networks.;African Americans--Societies, etc.;African Americans--Sports.;African Americans—Texas;African Americans--Texas--Religion.;African Americans--Texas--Social conditions.;Athletes;Baptists, Black;Baptists--Clergy.;Baseball;Basketball;Boxing;Children;Civic leaders;Civil rights;Civil rights movements—Texas;Education;Education, Primary.;Elementary school teaching;Families;Flood and natural disasters;Hairdressing of African Americans;HBCUs (Historically Black Colleges and Universities);Hurricane Carla, 1961;Industry, (Tex.);Interviews;King, Martin Luther, III;Labor Rights;Labor unions;Labor unions--Political activity;Louisiana--Franklin.;Louisiana--Jeanerette.;NAACP;Mental Health;National Association for the Advancement of Colored People;Natural disasters—Texas;Newspapers;Non-Violent Protest;Oral Histories;Public School Education;Race discrimination—Texas;Race relations;School integration;Schools;Segregation;Siblings;Social reform;Sports;Texas City (Tex.);Texas City (Tex.)--Explosion, 1947. Texas City (Tex.)--Social life and customs.;Texas--Race relations;Transcripts;Warton (Tex.);Discipline;Clothing and dress Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-02-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/10df1c0a4163fc42476cea52c25bb66a.jpg 17b2ef156082c613b6c16416120f89a3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource African American Experience - Texas City Description An account of the resource First hand accounts and stories from the African American community in Texas City, Texas. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Moore Memorial Public Library Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mayfield, Theresa Broussard, Brenda Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Theresa Mayfield Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thelma Smith Bowie OHMS Object Location of the Magic OHMS Link for OHMS Viewer https://ohms.texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/viewer.php?cachefile=2021OH_AAE001.xml OHMS Object Text All the text from the XML (do not make public) 5.4 Interview with Thelma Smith Bowie, Commissioner-At-Large, March 30, 3021 2021OH_AAE001 02:10:18 OHAAE Moore Memorial Public Library Oral History Repository Thelma Smith Bowie Theresa Mayfield 2021OH_AAE001 1:|15(1)|30(8)|44(9)|57(1)|74(5)|96(3)|116(5)|126(9)|140(15)|151(16)|165(2)|176(6)|194(7)|211(9)|226(15)|252(4)|267(15)|287(10)|311(1)|335(14)|348(4)|359(2)|368(12)|387(12)|399(5)|420(11)|435(1)|445(16)|457(1)|479(10)|495(2)|511(2)|528(4)|549(3)|571(4)|582(9)|602(2)|616(1)|625(7)|643(11)|655(7)|673(3)|696(10)|715(12)|726(2)|753(2)|766(8)|784(4)|804(7)|822(17)|840(14)|852(16)|873(3)|892(15)|917(3)|929(13)|945(5)|965(12)|976(3)|992(13)|1002(11)|1019(15)|1035(7)|1057(12)|1071(4)|1090(16)|1121(5)|1148(16)|1165(3)|1178(14)|1195(1)|1209(6)|1225(3)|1243(7)|1261(8)|1290(7)|1307(3)|1316(14)|1333(8)|1347(9)|1359(1)|1389(7)|1406(4)|1420(5)|1430(7)|1440(8)|1461(2)|1474(12)|1497(6)|1513(2)|1534(2)|1565(8)|1593(14)|1624(9)|1647(1)|1661(10)|1681(5)|1690(8)|1723(3)|1742(7)|1756(9)|1773(4)|1792(2)|1809(3)|1822(7)|1835(3)|1862(14)|1883(12)|1903(15)|1924(2)|1935(9)|1958(4)|1973(2)|1991(1)|2004(8)|2019(4)|2053(3)|2068(2)|2081(1)|2099(1)|2117(6)|2134(8)|2154(3)|2168(6)|2198(6)|2219(6)|2241(3)|2265(14)|2284(1) 0 https://youtu.be/1pDSlpdBBVs YouTube video 0 Introduction 87 Birth and family Siblings African American neighborhoods--Economic aspects ; African Americans--Families 165 Family moves to Texas City Debra Smith ; Jacqueline Smith ; Joe Smith ; Lake Road ; Lake Road Elementary School ; Laverne Smith ; Siblings ; Wilma Smith African Americans--Economic conditions ; African Americans--Employment ; African Americans--Families 398 Family's economic circumstances and employment Bostick's Café ; City of Texas City ; Contruction ; Domestic ; Holman Lilienstern ; Lake Road Elementary ; Latch-key ; Lincoln High School ; UTMB ; West Texas City ; Woodland Junior High School African Americans--Economic conditions ; African Americans--Education--Texas ; African Americans--Employment 951 Childhood residences 1867 Settlement ; Algeria Street ; Carver Park ; Lake Road Elementary ; Woodland Junior High School African American neighborhoods ; African Americans--Housing 1165 Racial and economic composition of the neighborhood Bogatto's ; La Marque ; La Marque High School ; Lincoln High School ; Woodland Junior High School ; Wynette Johnson African American neighborhoods--Economic aspects ; African Americans--Segregation ; Race discrimination--Texas 1453 Family gatherings Family reunions ; Holidays African Americans--Families ; African Americans--Religion 1539 Attending Rising Star Baptist Church Bell Zion Baptist Church ; Bell Zion Church ; Carbide Park ; Caver Park ; First Baptist Church ; Picnics ; Progressive Church ; Rev. D. N. Benford ; Rev. Dunn ; Stranger danger ; Vacation Bible School African Americans--Religion 1969 School experience Dorothy Washington Mitchell ; Geraldine McGowan ; Lake Road Elementary ; Lincoln High School ; Superintendent Black ; Tennis ; Woodland Junior High School African Americans--Education--Texas ; African Americans--Segregation ; Race discrimination--Texas 2313 Separate proms and learning to drive in Galveston Barbara James ; Galveston ; Gus Allen Café ; Mustang ; Proms ; Roy James ; Roy's Car Salon African Americans--Education--Texas ; Race discrimination--Texas 2487 Favorite school subjects and most influential teacher English ; Jim Llewellyn ; La Marque High School ; Presidential Physical Fitness Award ; Sara Miller ; Upward Bound African Americans--Education--Texas ; African Americans--Sports 2637 College experiences and first jobs AKA ; Congress Junior High School ; Intermural sports ; JC Penny's ; Nicki Porter ; North Texas State ; Physical Education ; Prairie View A&amp ; M College ; Sara Miller ; Scholarship ; Sororities ; Student loan ; Teaching African Americans--Education (Higher) ; African Americans--Employment ; African Americans--Segregation ; Race relations ; School integration 2912 Marriage and divorce Addiction African Americans--Military service ; Vietnam War, 1961-1975 3192 Spare time activities Carver Park ; Sander's Center ; Swimming pool ; Tennis African Americans--Recreation 3267 Childhood best friend Wynette Johnson 3906 Teen hang-outs School dances ; Teenie Weenie African Americans--Recreation 3977 Going to the movie theaters in Texas City during segregation Bayou Drive-in ; Drive-in theaters ; Movies ; The Showboat ; Theaters African Americans--Recreation 4041 The G &amp ; M night club G &amp ; M ; Musicians ; Night Clubs African Americans--Recreation 4121 A great mentor and dealing with deaths Ann Simmons ; Carolyn ellis ; David Medlock ; North Texas State ; School Board ; Wynette Johnson African Americans--Political activity 4412 Neighborhood safety African American neighborhoods 4808 Family Transportation Don's Used Car Lot African Americans--Economic conditions 4915 Special needs sister Austin State School ; Down syndrome ; Laverne Smith ; Mexia State School ; Siblings ; Vocational training ; Wilma Smith African Americans--Families 5330 Learning to drive Chevrolet 5393 Getting the news and watching television Ebony Magazine ; Jet Magazine ; News ; Television ; The La Marque Times Newspapers 5518 Healthcare Bradshaw's Florist ; Dr. Hook ; Dr. Tree ; Health district African Americans--Hospital care 5627 Shopping in Texas City Algeria Street ; Bob Higgin's Lincoln Dealership ; Bogatto's ; Bostick's Café ; Cooper's Bar-B-Q Pit ; Dr. Brantford ; Eve's ; JC Penny's ; Mainland Funeral Home ; Mapp's Pharmacy ; O. C. Matthew's Plumbing ; Sears and Roebuck's ; Slaton's Grocery ; V. A. Change ; Weingarten's ; Zale's Jewelry Store 5954 Family mealtime African Americans--Families 6021 Being African American in a segregated society Boycotts ; La Marque High School ; Malcolm X African Americans--Civil rights--Texas ; African Americans--Segregation ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Non-Violent Protest ; Race discrimination--Texas ; School integration 6564 School integration La Marque High School ; Lincoln High School School integration 6610 Voting Johnnie Henderson ; Rev. D. N. Benford ; Roosevelt Henderson ; Wayne Johnson Civil rights 6692 Community leaders College of the Mainland ; David Porter ; Dedrick Johnson ; Johnnie Henderson ; Roosevelt Henderson ; Wayne Johnson African Americans--Political activity ; Newspapers 6795 Running for public office Ann Simmons ; Carolyn Ellis ; Dr. Porter ; Educators ; Nicki Porter ; Political machines ; Public office ; Rev. D. N. Benford African Americans--Political activity 6952 National leaders in civil rights Barbara Jordan ; Legacy ; Shirley Chisholm African Americans--Political activity ; Civil rights 7075 The churches' role in civil rights and politics Clergy ; Vote African Americans--Religion ; Civil rights 7188 The NAACP and civic organizations in Texas City Lion's Club ; NAACP ; Nick Gary Foundation ; Optimists Club ; Rotary Club ; Texas City ISD National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 7375 Final thoughts 7783 Conclusion Oral History Thelma Smith Bowie, Commissioner-at-Large for Texas City, Texas, describes moving from Temple, Texas to Texas City - La Marque, in 1957, and how living at 122 Lake Road “was the best place to be in the whole wide world”. She shares stories about her sisters, especially Wilma, her sister with down syndrome. She reminisces about spending happy times on her grandparents’ farm during the summer breaks, and her thoughts on the influence that church had on her and the community. Bowie tells of her family’s economic circumstances and how they improve after her mother’s decision to attend college. Bowie talks about her early experiences with racial discrimination from childhood to adulthood. She describes one incident when the superintendent of the school district called her out of the classroom so he could see for himself that a Black child had the highest standardized test scores of all the students from La Marque Independent School District. She shares stories about her choices to attend high school during the time of integration. She voices her admiration for Sara Miller, the PE teacher at La Marque, who recognized her athletic talents and encouraged her in her university vocations. She talks about Ann Simmons and how instrumental she was in convincing Bowie to run for a seat on the school board, which began her journey into politics. MAYFIELD: So, today is Tuesday, March 30, 2021, and we are in Texas City, Texas at the Nessler Center. This is Theresa Mayfield, the Local History Librarian with Moore Memorial Public Library. I am working on the African American Oral History Project, initiated by Moore Memorial Public Library to aid the African American community in building the historical narrative and to fill in the gap of the historical record. Today, we have the distinct pleasure of interviewing Commissioner Thelma Bowie of Texas City. Commissioner Bowie, thank you so much for being here today. And, would you mind, very much, introducing yourself? BOWIE: Yes. My name is Thelma Smith Bowie. And I&#039 ; m presently City Commissioner-At-Large. And I&#039 ; m truly humbled by this opportunity just to share my brief journey, um, in this lifetime. Uh, it&#039 ; s just, it&#039 ; s just something I never dreamed I would be involved with and, it&#039 ; s truly a pleasure having to collect the information required for the oral history project. It really took me back down some paths of, of rediscovery of, of, feelings at different times in my life. Uh, my growth, my progression, and uh, it&#039 ; s been a blessing to me to have been able to take this walk. And had it not been for this project, the oral history project, uh, I wouldn&#039 ; t have done it, probably. MAYFIELD: Well, we are so glad to have you here today. Thank you, so much. BOWIE: Thank you, so much. MAYFIELD: Well, uh, we&#039 ; re going to start some little bit with your family. Um, can you tell me when and where you were born? BOWIE: I was born in Temple, Texas. October the sixth, 1949. Um, we were a small family. When I came along, I had an older sister, two older sisters and an older brother. And uh, it was a, a fun time. We played. We had fun. We didn&#039 ; t have sibling rivalry at that time. (laughs) But, uh, it was amazing how much fun we had, and, and not knowing how poor we were. Uh, we lived in a small, small house. Uh, we later transitioned to a, a project, Crestview Project. Um, the neighborhood had lots and lots of families and kids who played together. Um, and the, the school that I attended was very close by, so I was able to walk to school, uh, in the first grade. Never knew anything about kindergarten. As I said, what, what was kindergarten when you don&#039 ; t have money? BOWIE: So, I&#039 ; m sorry. So, would you repeat your question? (laughs) MAYFIELD: No, it&#039 ; s okay. So, when did you move to Texas City? BOWIE: We moved to Texas City in &#039 ; 57. And the reason we moved to Texas City was that my parents were both looking for economic opportunities, jobs. Uh, at the time, if you didn&#039 ; t work in the hospital system in Temple, Texas, you know, you pretty much were out of luck. So, there were uh, sisters and brothers living in the La Marque-Texas City area of my father. So, we were easily able to transition, get situated. We moved to our first home in La Marque at 122 Lake Road and that just so happened to be right adjacent to Lake Road Elementary school, which is no longer there. It was recently torn down due to, uh, Hurricane Harvey. BOWIE: But that was the best place to be in the whole wide world. I mean, who else could go next door to, to roller skate, you know. To, to run home and get my teacher some iced tea from my mom, or some snacks that they wanted, and they knew my mom and my dad both cooked. So, it was always a fun place to be. It was centrally located. All my friends lived up and down Lake Road, and all of the, uh, streets that were tributary streets. So, it was the best of times for me. BOWIE: And again, I never realized how poor we were because we always had food. BOWIE: We always had clean clothes. They weren&#039 ; t like the clothes of some of my friends who did dress better and, and I began to notice that, but, you know, my mom and dad, um, placed importance on substance and not on materialistic things and, --so, I got to wear all of the hand-me-downs from Laverne and Wilma, and then Jackie got to wear my clothes. The only sibling that, that really had it made in the shade, was my baby sister, Debra. Uh, she had new everything, you know. We kind of--(laughs). MAYFIELD: --She got lucky. BOWIE: We took a position and kind of decided against her a couple of times because she was Mama&#039 ; s baby doll and we were just regular Thelma, Jacqueline, Laverne, Wilma, and Joe. So, yeah, baby, baby sister took, took a beating [Ed. Note: verbal beating] a couple of times. MAYFIELD: So, you said that your family came from Temple. Is that where they&#039 ; re originally from? BOWIE: My mother grew up and was born in Roby, Texas which is far west Texas. And then her family later transitioned to Chappell Hill, which is not, which is between Brenham and Independence. My dad was born and raised in Independence, Texas. So, Chappell Hill and Independence came together, they met, and the rest was history. MAYFIELD: The rest is history. Um, so, you have, --uh Laverne, is your oldest sister? BOWIE: That&#039 ; s correct. MAYFIELD: Is Joe the second oldest child? BOWIE: No. Uh, my sister Wilma, she&#039 ; s, my sister ; my special needs sister. She had Down Syndrome. She was the second, uh, born child in the family. And then my brother, Joe. And I was in the middle. And I complained at every family reunion. Middle children suffer tremendously, traumatic experiences because there are no cute baby pictures of me, anywhere. That, --I think I have a picture of me at three years old. It&#039 ; s the first time you see a picture of me as a little kid. And that was at a birthday party with my brothers and sisters. No other kids. Uh, but the others have cute little pictures in ballerina outfits, and sailor outfits. I don&#039 ; t have one. And I let them know every time we get together. Why didn&#039 ; t I deserve my own baby picture? MAYFIELD: Oh. BOWIE: Yeah. MAYFIELD: That&#039 ; s what happens when you&#039 ; re stuck in the middle, right? BOWIE: Absolutely. Absolutely. MAYFIELD: So, uh, you said that your, uh, that you guys wore hand-me-downs, but does, how was your family&#039 ; s economic circumstances when you came to Texas City? BOWIE: My dad worked sometimes, up to three jobs a day. My mom worked two jobs every day, except the weekends. What I remember, is that she was a domestic. She worked in the homes of influential people in Texas City. Holman Lilienstern, being one of them, who was an encourager, and a motivator, and a mentor, in terms of getting her to look at improving her educational status and enhance her job opportunities. Um, my dad worked construction. And I would see him, you know, go out in the cold, and the rain. And he never complained. He was a great provider. He later started cooking at Bostick&#039 ; s restaurant. Old-timers (laughs) will know Bostick&#039 ; s as one of the finest, uh, restaurants in, uh, West Texas City on FM 1765. And uh, it was amazing. We loved him working there because we would wait for him to get off from work and he would come home with these white boxes. Huge boxes loaded with hamburgers, french fries, fried shrimp, steak. And we&#039 ; d be up at twelve o&#039 ; clock (laughs) every night, &quot ; Okay, what do we have? What do we have?&quot ; We&#039 ; d eat and then we&#039 ; d go back to sleep, of course. But it, it was, it was, it was difficult for them. I understand, um, which is why I think being so close to Lake Road was, was, was a great deal, --a strategic move. In that, by the time we got out of school, Lake Road, and Woodland, --and my sister was at Lincoln, at the time, our mom had already cooked dinner for us. And so, I guess we were latch-key kids? MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: And so, we went home and we ate. Uh, Laverne and Jackie were inside girls. I was the outdoorsman. I was the tomboy. So, I was ripping and running, walking from one end of Lake Road all the way down to Jackson Street to play with my friends. So, uh, they did what they had to do to put food on our table, and to make sure that we had a roof over our heads. So, they worked those jobs, uh, until things began to change. And I, I mentioned, earlier, that my mom, at the age of thirty-eight, was forced to make an, uh, important decision in her life, between home and Lilienstern, and also my oldest sister, Laverne. Laverne encouraged her to go back to school. You know, you have a ninth-grade education, you&#039 ; re not going to find the kind of jobs that you are worthy of, unless you go back to school. She did attend Alvin Junior College. She got her GED, and she was hooked on learning. She went on for the next two years and she got her, uh, Associates degree. And it was very soon after that that she applied at UTMB for a unit clerk position. She started out at the bottom, but she worked herself up to a unit manager over the years. And I began to see her dress better. I began to see the cars look a little bit better. And even our clothes got to look a little better. And we were truly blessed at some point and time the city of Texas City offered my dad a position in public works. I think it was in the streets department. And so, this was his very first job with benefits. Both my parents had benefits. Which was, --it meant insurance. It meant security. And so, I guess we were no longer poor, but we were, by far, not wealthy people. You know, we, we were comfortable in our skins. We didn&#039 ; t have a lot of extravagant things. We didn&#039 ; t have extravagant clothes. Everything was functional and for a purpose. MAYFIELD: About how old were you when your parents&#039 ; economic circumstances started to change? BOWIE: It was probably going into the fifth and sixth grade that things began to look better. So, they put, they put the time in. They did the work to improve their economic situation. And, they motivated us, because I would always watch them and just wonder, you know, here my dad is going out to work in the cold and the rain. That means he loves us, you know? He wants to take, you know, care of us. And the same thing with my mom working multiple jobs. You know, why are you cleaning houses for other people? Why don&#039 ; t you just stay? &quot ; Well, I have to work.&quot ; And you begin to understand the sacrifice that they made. And for that, I will be forever grateful. MAYFIELD: Well, your, your parents must have come from, you know, really strong people. BOWIE: They did. They did. Um, my grandparents on my father&#039 ; s side, I spent every summer. Even as a senior in high school, I would still go up there and visit. I just, --I loved being outdoors. I loved picking the eggs and getting the vegetables, and helping my grandmother prepare meals. Wash clothes in the strange machine, that, that (laughs) I wasn&#039 ; t familiar with, and wringing them out. It was a fun place to go and visit. And if you think my parents worked hard, --my great-parents, Jackie and Maggie Smith, I, I don&#039 ; t know how they did it. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Did they live on a farm, or-- BOWIE: They had their own farm. They raised everything from their meats to their vegetables. I think the only thing that they purchased was sometimes, sugar, because they had sugarcane. But um, they didn&#039 ; t purchase toilet tissue, either they had magazines. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: We won&#039 ; t get into that. (laughs) The outhouse, we will not forget the outhouse. MAYFIELD: That&#039 ; s a story all by itself. BOWIE: The outhouse was a scary place. You don&#039 ; t dare go to the outhouse unless somebody&#039 ; s standing in the little trail. And one time, I just didn&#039 ; t want to go in it by myself. And I just took my little position and looked around to make sure nobody was watching. I should have been looking for the red ants that were right below me. MAYFIELD: Oh no. BOWIE: And I got up and ran, and screamed and uh, I never did that again. But it was a great place to be because they worked hard and they celebrated every Sunday. Every Sunday, a huge meal was prepared. We went down at the church. If walls could talk, --I used to sit in that church, Liberty Baptist, and think, this is church. When people can make music with just the cadence of their feet on the floor, on the wooden floors, it wasn&#039 ; t like the church that I attended in Texas City, Rising Star, which is where I grew up. BOWIE: But, the church in, in, Independence was magical. It was spiritual. Uh, you could see that they were so thankful for their freedom. They were thankful for the food that they could share with their neighbors. And my grandparents did a lot of that, you know. If they slaughtered a, a hog or a cow, then everybody in the neighborhood was going to eat good. If they had a over-abundance of crops then everybody else was going to be able to put away for the winter their vegetables. They started off as sharecroppers. And eventually were able to buy their own land. And their land just happened to be next to the church. MAYFIELD: Oh, how convenient. BOWIE: Yeah, yeah. It was, it was great. So, so, you ate a good breakfast, and you walked a little short trail to the, the church. And actually, it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s a highway, and I&#039 ; m sorry I cannot remember the name of the highway, but it was a short walk. And we spent the day their praising God, being thankful for everything that we had. And then we would come home and wait for the minister to come, because the minister and his wife would always eat at different homes. And it seemed like he ate at my grandparents&#039 ; house a lot more frequently he did other homes. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: And, uh, we wondered &quot ; When is he going to eat and pray, bless the food, so we all could eat-- MAYFIELD: Uh-huh. BOWIE: --and, and get this over with.&quot ; But he would just drag it out, and drag it out. And we learned to be patient. MAYFIELD: (laughs) I guess that you&#039 ; d have to have patience. BOWIE: We learned to be patient. MAYFIELD: Um, so, you said you grew up, --growing up you lived next to Lake Road Elementary. You lived there for about how many years? BOWIE: I lived there until I entered the sixth grade, which would put me at Woodland Junior High at this time. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: And once again, it was probably one of the most strategic places my parents could have put us, because we were right across the street from Carver Park. And all of these streets in this area and Carver Park were a part of the 1867 Settlement. And it was just a short walk down the sidewalk to get to, to Woodland. MAYFIELD: And what was the address? BOWIE: Uh, originally, it was 625 Algeria. And at some point, Texas City annexed that area because it was La Marque. Texas City annexed it. And when they did, the address became number 14 South Algeria. But Carver Park was great. I mean, you had the playground. Um, and later tennis courts. And that became one of my sports of choice. And I would stay until I had to come home. But lots of fun. MAYFIELD: So, I had who lived in the house with you. So, it was your parents and your brother and your sisters. Um, and you said your neighborhood was located near Carver Park. Did your neighborhood have a name? BOWIE: No. No. I mean, every, --that whole area was called the Settlement. MAYFIELD: Oh, okay. BOWIE: Was, was grouped together as the Settlement. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: But each street had its own little identity. And so, you know, Algeria Street kids would, would, would challenge Rose Street, or Hemphill, or kids from South Acres to softball. And we would meet at Carver Park. Or we would have races to see who had the the fastest runners on the street, or who could play football. And I was always playing with the boys, and racing with the boys. And my sisters couldn&#039 ; t understand it. But I just liked being in the air. I liked being out in the sun. Hence, I was always a little bit darker than everybody else in my family. And (laughs) they don&#039 ; t seem to remember it, but I did. But they used to make fun of me. MAYFIELD: Your sisters? BOWIE: Oh, absolutely. MAYFIELD: For like-- BOWIE: --Being darker. MAYFIELD: Oh, for being darker. Oh, okay. Okay. I thought maybe for being a tomboy and liking being outside. BOWIE: Well, that too. But that too. But they also made fun of me because I was darker than them. And they were pale. They were very fair. Uh, sort of like my mom, on the lighter complexion side. And I was, --I called myself the black sheep of the family. Which is another reason why I, you know, I, I had to succeed in everything that I did, -- because, okay, you guys, you&#039 ; re going to regret teasing me. You&#039 ; re going to regret calling me some of the names that you did, because I&#039 ; m going to make you remember who I am. I&#039 ; m going to make you value me as a person. You&#039 ; re going to be proud of your sister. Okay. At the end of the day, how do you like me now? And they&#039 ; re going to hate me for saying this. (laughs) MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: They&#039 ; re going to hate me for saying that. MAYFIELD: They&#039 ; re going to want to come and, and, and, and be part of the oral history, too, so they can have their say, right? BOWIE: Uh, that would be interesting. (laughs) MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: That would be interesting. MAYFIELD: So, um, what was the racial and economic make-up of your neighborhood? BOWIE: I, I lived in a predominantly Black neighborhood. The school that I attended was of course, elementary, and junior, and the first year of high school were, were segregated. The only time I saw white kids was when I would walk all the way down to Jackson Street. On the other side of Jackson Street, there you had a mixture of some white families and Black families. And I would see this little boy playing in his back yard by himself. And I&#039 ; m wondering, you know, why isn&#039 ; t he playing with us? But it never, it never dawned on me that there was a reason perhaps his family chose not to allow him to play with the --with Black kids, you know? I, I can&#039 ; t even begin to guess what their thinking was. The first time, and I think I mentioned this to you on our first conversation on the phone that I knew there was a difference in skin color, was the day that I went to Bogatto&#039 ; s, which was a fairly large grocery store located on Hwy 3. And with the windows down, I, I stayed in the car. And there was a, a little white boy about my same age. And I just happened to glance in his direction. And he let me know that I was a, a Black nigger. And, it, it, it stunned me. Not what he said, it was his facial expression, of the look of hate. The look of discontentment. And I still didn&#039 ; t know what a nigger was. I had never heard that word, in my life, spoken in my house, in my grandparents&#039 ; house. I&#039 ; d, I&#039 ; d never heard it. So, my mom returned to the car with her groceries, and on the way home I said, &quot ; Well, Mom, what, what is a nigger?&quot ; And she gave me the talk. And then I had that first awakening of racial differences in La Marque, which was my world at the time. That&#039 ; s as far as it went. I continued to, you know, go to Woodland, which was segregated. My first year at Lincoln, it was segregated. And after my freshman year, I was pretty much, just, decisive that I wanted to transfer to La Marque High School for a couple of reasons. Um, one of my best friends was there. Wynette Johnson. And a lot of the girls that I played with on Jackson Street. They were going to, they had to go because of the physical location of their home. Um, I didn&#039 ; t have to go, so it was purely a choice that I made. And it was number one to be a part of high school with the people that I was closest with. The second reason, I had a teacher, and I will not call her name, or the subject that she taught at Lincoln. And the first day in her class, she said, &quot ; Smith, you will never be as smart as your sister, Laverne.&quot ; And she said it with the same contempt as this little white boy many, many years earlier. And I thought. &quot ; And you&#039 ; re not as pretty as she is, either.&quot ; The bell rung. I went to the counselor&#039 ; s office. I got out of her class the same day. And I never looked back at her, but I had a point to prove to her as well. MAYFIELD: Why do you think she talked to you like that? BOWIE: You know what? MAYFIELD: It seems strange. BOWIE: I, I, it was weird. It was very, --it was unsettling. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: I mentioned it to my mom, and she kind of played it off. She said, well, some people are like that. You know, people loved your sister, she was, she was real popular. She was a drum major. You know, she was very smart, but I was smart, too. I don&#039 ; t, --to this day, --but every time I saw this lady, and she&#039 ; s still alive, she would look at me with that same contempt. And I would smile. And I would be cordial. I&#039 ; d be polite and respectful. I don&#039 ; t know, to this day, what I did to put her in that position or mindset to try to break me down. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. It&#039 ; s very strange. That&#039 ; s very strange. You seemed to do a lot with the kids in your neighborhood. Uh, did families get together in your neighborhood a lot, like for holidays, or like, Juneteenth, or Memorial Day? BOWIE: You know, we celebrated with our immediate family. My dad has, --had sisters and brothers, so I had first cousins. And so, we would get together for birthdays. We would get together, and we all went to the same church, so we always saw each other, you know, at church. The reunions didn&#039 ; t start. I think I have a picture of one of the first family reunions that I went to in Fort Worth. It was at my Aunt Tassie&#039 ; s house. Aunt Tassie was a sister to Maggie O&#039 ; Neal Smith. And they had the, the fine china set on the table. And I&#039 ; m looking at the dishes and the glasses, and I&#039 ; m going the goblets, and I&#039 ; m going, we don&#039 ; t have stuff like this at our (laughs) at our house. But it was a grand time and I think of the picture, (Ed. Note: picture of family reunion) my mind was focused on the food on the table. Once again, I was waiting for the elders to bless the food so that we could eat. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: And uh, everybody sees that picture, my family, my aunts, they say, &quot ; Look at you, you look like a hungry little child looking at that food and not paying attention.&quot ; And it was true. I was hungry. MAYFIELD: Children, that&#039 ; s what they, that&#039 ; s what they go for. BOWIE: Absolutely. MAYFIELD: Um, so you said, you attended the Rising Star Baptist Church. Is that right? BOWIE: I did. I did. I joined church. Rev. D. N. Benford baptized me and all of my siblings. Uh, my mother was active matron working with the youth in the church. It seems like I was in church maybe three, four days, or slice, uh, nights a week. And, that&#039 ; s where a lot of social activity went on for a long time. MAYFIELD: Yeah, I was going to say, like what influence did the church have on you? BOWIE: Well, it kept me out of trouble, because I was first of all, scared God was going to, uh, (laughs). I would be cursed to Hell if I did something that I wasn&#039 ; t supposed to do. A lot of my friends were, were, --had boyfriends and stuff and I was in, --I think I was in junior high, I still thought you could get a person, pregnant by kissing a girl. I hadn&#039 ; t had that talk yet with my parents and I really wasn&#039 ; t fixing to get pregnant, by kissing any boys. So, I was a late bloomer in all aspects of life. Uh, but church was a wonderful place, especially in the summertime. Because what would happen, is we would have Vacation Bible school for two weeks. And so, one church would schedule their Vacation Bible school this two week. Uh, Bell Zion would schedule theirs two weeks later and so forth, so that, that our parents had a safe place for us to go pretty much all summer long. As we went from church to church to church, learning about the Bible, doing plays, singing songs, refreshments, and then putting on a program at the end of the, --each vacation Bible School for each church. So, then, my, my spear of friends began to grow because then I began to fellowship and have friends from other churches in the same neighborhood. Uh, between Bell Zion, Rising Star, Progressive, and some of the smaller churches, First Baptist, uh, it, it was amazing. It was, it was a simple time, but it was such a pleasant time. We could walk up and down the streets. We didn&#039 ; t have to worry about being kidnapped. I remember, one time, we had a discussion at school about stranger danger and we were told, never, never, never, accept rides from a stranger. And this was Principal Moore at Lake Road Elementary. And for some reason, Maxine, Vanita and myself wanted to go to Bogatto&#039 ; s, and we walked there. And we were good, but we kind of got tired coming back. And, uh, some Black guy in a truck, pulled over and said, &quot ; You girls need a ride?&quot ; And, uh, Vanita says, &quot ; Yeah, let&#039 ; s ride. I&#039 ; m tired. I don&#039 ; t want to walk.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Oh, no. I don&#039 ; t know, we don&#039 ; t, --do you know this man?&quot ; She said, &quot ; It&#039 ; s okay. It&#039 ; s okay.&quot ; And we assumed that when she said, &quot ; It&#039 ; s okay&quot ; , she knew him. So, we&#039 ; re in the back of the truck. He&#039 ; s taking off with us in the back of the truck. And I said, &quot ; So, what&#039 ; s your uncle&#039 ; s name?&quot ; And she said, &quot ; My uncle?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, you said, you knew him. Is he your uncle or something?&quot ; She said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t know him.&quot ; And I started knocking on the back of his window and I told him, I said, &quot ; This is where we&#039 ; re getting off. Thank you.&quot ; And he did stop and he left us off. But for God, he was not someone who intended to do harm to us. Again, it was a time where, you know, we shouldn&#039 ; t have accepted that ride. It was a time where we didn&#039 ; t have to worry. I thought about people, uh, doing evil things to children. MAYFIELD: Well, that&#039 ; s very lucky. That&#039 ; s very lucky. BOWIE: We were. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: And I remind Maxine. She lives in Baltimore, Maryland. And I remind her, every time she comes home to visit her parents, &quot ; Do you remember that time we took that ride?&quot ; And she says, &quot ; We were stupid.&quot ; I say, we were very, very-- MAYFIELD: And don&#039 ; t you forget it. Mm-hmm. BOWIE: Absolutely. MAYFIELD: So, for your Vacation Bible Schools, were they different programs for each church? BOWIE: They had a similar format. Sometimes the music changed from Baptist to Methodist. But it was all the same format. You know, where you study scripture. You study prominent people in the Bible. And then, you have a program at the end. Um, and then you have a picnic outdoors at the following day after the program. The program is usually on a Friday night, and then on Saturday there&#039 ; s a big picnic at the church. Or sometimes they would have the picnics at Carver Park. The old Carver Park, which at that time, was segregated, so you had a section for Black people to picnic, and then you had the much larger section for everybody else to have their picnics. MAYFIELD: There were two Carver Parks? BOWIE: Not Carver, not Carver, Oh, what is it?&quot ; Uh. Over in La Marque it&#039 ; s a county-run, Carbide. I&#039 ; ve got the C&#039 ; s. It&#039 ; s Carbide Park. That was the segregated Carbide Park, and then a section of Carbide Park that was for the Anglos. And ours was smaller, but you know what, not going over there knowing what they had, we thought we had the world. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: We really did. MAYFIELD: Did, so you had an opportunity to see different pastors, uh, did any pastor stand out in your mind more? BOWIE: We all were, were just mesmerized with Rev. Dunn. Rev. Dunn was pastor at, uh, Bell Zion Baptist Church. He had a voice that made you remember what he said. The way he enunciated. Just the, the richness of his voice played on your mind, so that you wanted to learn more about what he was saying. And you tended to pay attention. There were some churches we went to, we, we were not as attentive as perhaps we should have been. But with Rev. Dunn, he was monumental in that I said, &quot ; You know, one day, I want to be able to talk like that&quot ; , fearlessly and just speak eloquently. And so, he impressed a lot of us. A lot of us. MAYFIELD: So, other than Vacation Bible School, as you got older, were there any other programs for teenagers, um, young adults at the churches? BOWIE: Oh, every church had, had programs for each age group, so, you, you didn&#039 ; t get out of it as you aged. You just had to go to a different set of matrons, who dealt with the older girls, --until I went off to college. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Okay. And so, you said that you, went to Lakewood Elementary-- BOWIE: Lake Road. MAYFIELD: Lake Road Elementary-- BOWIE: Uh-huh. MAYFIELD: --and Woodland Junior High School? BOWIE: That&#039 ; s correct. MAYFIELD: Uh, and, uh, you went to Lincoln High School in ninth grade? BOWIE: I went to Lincoln my first, --my freshman year. MAYFIELD: And uh, how did you like high school? BOWIE: High school, ninth grade was fine, with that one exception of the teacher, for some reason. I joined the tennis team ; I had a couple of friends. We all played tennis. And we all had the same coach. And (laughs) it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s funny that I think about it. Uh, we went to a tennis tournament and the three of us, --actually, we were the three freshmen, and then there were some seniors. But, when the freshmen played, my girlfriends played, the, the tennis coach, --and she&#039 ; s a dear friend of mind, she&#039 ; s passed on, Dorothy, Washington Mitchell, --she watched them. And you know, she was coaching them. I think, maybe, she was tired by the time my set came up, because she went and got in her car and went to sleep. MAYFIELD: Oh no. BOWIE: (laughs) And I just felt like, well, darn. Of course, I lost. (laughs) I just didn&#039 ; t feel, I didn&#039 ; t feel, --I didn&#039 ; t have the motivation. And I was a much better player than what I played that day. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, Well, you know, it&#039 ; s going, I, I&#039 ; m sorry, we need to step back a bit because, I remember you told the story about Superintendent Black when you were, uh, in-- BOWIE: This was, uh-- MAYFIELD: --elementary school, correct? BOWIE: This was at Lake Road, and Mrs. Geraldine McGowan was my third-grade teacher. Her husband would go on to be the principal at Woodland by the time I got there. But she called me out in the hallway and there&#039 ; s this tall white guy, and I&#039 ; m not really understanding what that was about. I went out there and I stood and looked. And then, I was told I could go back to my desk, and I did. And it was many, many years later. I think I was grown, when my mom, --we were just sitting around talking, and she said, &quot ; Of all my kids, you gave me the most headaches. You got the most spankings. But you were the most giving and caring and you were perhaps my smartest child.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, Mom, Laverne was smart.&quot ; &quot ; No, no, no, you were different. You were different. You were different.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, I don&#039 ; t remember that.&quot ; Uh, she said, &quot ; Well, when you were in third grade, the superintendent came because when the test scores were tabulated&quot ; , --it was a standardized test that was given every year. You had the highest score of all the kids in La Marque Independent School District, white and Black. And he just had to lay his eyes on you to see who that person was that had the scores so high.&quot ; I don&#039 ; t ever remember him congratulating me. I just remember him looking at me and then walking away. MAYFIELD: What were your thoughts in your head? BOWIE: At that, at, --in the third grade, what do you think? MAYFIELD: Well, in third grade-- BOWIE: It, it didn&#039 ; t, it didn&#039 ; t register, first of all, that he was a superintendent. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: He was not introduced to me, so that I would know what his title was at that time in the third grade. So, I just, --I was wondering did I do something wrong, to be honest. And, and I knew I hadn&#039 ; t done anything wrong, because there was only two times in my lifetime that a teacher has ever had to spank me. Uh, the first time was in the second grade at Lake Road, and I can&#039 ; t even remember what I did, but I, I must have been talking when I shouldn&#039 ; t have. The first time I caught a spanking was at Crestview Elementary in Temple. And my teacher, Ms. Rambo, she sent me out to the principal&#039 ; s office to see what time it was. We didn&#039 ; t have clocks in our room. And she wanted to know what time it was. And she didn&#039 ; t give me a hall pass. And somebody caught me in the hall without a hall pass and I got a spanking. And I was trying to explain, &quot ; But Ms. Rambo sent me to get the time.&quot ; But it really didn&#039 ; t matter, uh, I got the spanking. I told Mama about it. She said, It&#039 ; s bridge under the water, get over it.&quot ; And I got over it. MAYFIELD: But when you&#039 ; re an adult and your mom tells you this story about Superintendent Black, then what were you thinking? BOWIE: He was motivation for me to go to La Marque High School. And, and what he doesn&#039 ; t understand, the fire that he lit in me, in my heart, fueled my aspirations. It, it fueled, every step that I took. Most of the decisions that I made were always strategic in terms of how do I make my life count. Not for him. But how do I make my life count? And in the meantime, it would demonstrate to him and anybody else that judges you because of your skin color. That, that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s not kosher. You know, you look at your, --you look at a person&#039 ; s heart, their spirit, and, and just based on that, but not because they are different from you, because of skin color. And so, I, I kind of had, grew up fast. Um, when I went off to college--and I know I&#039 ; m skipping ahead, so I apologize. High school and college, I came, --became more aware of racial division and racial hatred. High school, we just took the approach that if you don&#039 ; t want us at the senior high, at the prom, we&#039 ; re going to get dressed up and we&#039 ; re going to go to Galveston and, we&#039 ; re going to have our own prom. And we did. MAYFIELD: So, you weren&#039 ; t invited to your own prom? BOWIE: Oh, we were invited, we just weren&#039 ; t welcome. I mean, there were, there were some kids who didn&#039 ; t, --who made comments that they hoped we didn&#039 ; t show up. And rather than show up and be somewhere where you weren&#039 ; t wanted, and this wasn&#039 ; t all the kids, because I had some white friends who were really great friends. In fact, one of them was crazy enough to let me drive her Mustang all the time and I don&#039 ; t understand what, what was wrong with her. (laughs) MAYFIELD: I was going to ask you about that, later. (laughs) BOWIE: Yeah, I, I don&#039 ; t know why she let me drive her car, but I thought, sure, I want to drive it. But we went to the Gus Mount, --Gus Allen Café in Galveston, it&#039 ; s on the beach. Used to be. It&#039 ; s not there anymore. And we all dined on shrimp and baked potatoes. And we later went down the beach where you&#039 ; d actually drive down to the sand and played our music. We danced. Nobody was drinking at that time, that I was aware of. And once again, uh, uh, the guy that I went with was a friend of mine. And Butch said, &quot ; Well, hey, you want to drive?&quot ; And once again, I said, &quot ; Yeah, sure.&quot ; Now, I didn&#039 ; t know that my vision at nighttime is not what it should be sometimes. And I wound up bumping into the car in front of us. And they, to this day, anytime we get together, --Roy James, who owns Roy&#039 ; s Car Salon, --I bumped into his car. His wife, Barbara, and I are thick as thieves. We&#039 ; re great friends. But, I bumped into his car and we laugh about it all the time. &quot ; Remember our prom? How much fun we had?&quot ; And we didn&#039 ; t have a band, you know. We got dressed up. We put on our formals. We had our corsages. We ate a great dinner. We, we listened to music. We danced in the sand. We had the best prom, --the Blacks that, that chose to participate in our private prom. We had our private prom. MAYFIELD: Did you have your driver&#039 ; s license at the time when you were driving? BOWIE: I&#039 ; m trying to think. I think I did. I think I did. But driving on the sand when the sand looks like the water, it&#039 ; s just so-- MAYFIELD: A little confusing. BOWIE: Exactly, exactly. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Uh, so what was your favorite subject in school? BOWIE: My favorite subject was English, because it came for easy. Grammar was extremely easy to grasp. Uh, literature, I loved, because you could escape in characters, and then you learn things. Your vocabulary grew because of your reading. Um, so, I would have to say English. And then second would be physical education. Once again, being a tomboy, I loved any kind of sports. And I had one really wonderful teacher at La Marque High that, that went over and beyond in recognizing some of my talents. And pulling me aside to encourage me, to motivate me. She tried to get me into golfing. She tried to get me into bowling. In fact, she did get me into bowling. She said, you just have too much time and you need to this, and when you go to college, do this and do that. And major in physical education and come back and be a P. E. teacher. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: I listened to her and I minored in P. E. And I thought, at least I kept in shape. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Would you be interested in sharing her name? BOWIE: Her name was Sara Miller. MAYFIELD: Sara Miller. BOWIE: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Okay. And, uh, so, since you&#039 ; re very physical, I&#039 ; m assuming you played sports. BOWIE: Uh, I --at Lake --at La Marque High School, no. In our physical education class, I excelled in everything. And back then, you had, --John F. Kennedy had like a physical fitness, [challenge] --I think I have a badge or something that I received, where the top five, the top five percent who score the highest in all these different skills challenges got recognized. And I won that every year. Every year. Every year starting from Lincoln all the way to La Marque High School. MAYFIELD: That&#039 ; s a, an accomplishment. That&#039 ; s amazing. Did you have people trying to beat you, you know, since you were holding the record, they wanted to-- BOWIE: --And they, they tried. Everybody wanted, --some girls don&#039 ; t, don&#039 ; t like P. E., you know that. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: They didn&#039 ; t want to sweat. But, you know, playing with boys in my neighborhood, it was, it was easy breezy. MAYFIELD: So, as you&#039 ; re going through high school and you were thinking about college, you know, what were thoughts about, about that? BOWIE: Well, I looked at my older sister and she had gone to Prairie View and graduated, with an engineering degree. And she was another mentor who encouraged me. &quot ; You need to go to college, Thelma.&quot ; Just like she encouraged my mom, she encouraged me. So, I decided that I would go, thinking I was going to get a scholarship. My grades were, were good. Um, I never received a scholarship offer, you know, and I was wondering about that. But I went on, got a student loan, and graduated in four years from North Texas State. The times when I was there at North Texas State, African Americans had just been allowed to stay in the dorm three years before I got there. So, there was, again, racial, racial tension in the dorms with some people. And we had one girl, I don&#039 ; t think she wanted to, to be on the floor with my roommate and I. And she would make little comments (laughs). And we got mischievous one night and we got some red ink (laughs), we took a cross, and we spread it like it was blood, and we (laughs) MAYFIELD: Oh, no. BOWIE: We laid it outside her door. And we never heard a thing from her, ever again. MAYFIELD: Oh, she was quiet after that, right? BOWIE: She was good. MAYFIELD: So, she knew it was you guys. BOWIE: I think she did. MAYFIELD: Oh, okay. Okay. BOWIE: And I regret that, afterwards. MAYFIELD: Uh-huh. BOWIE: But at the time, it was a troubling time at, at North Texas State. The first year I got there, it&#039 ; s like, --come on, we want you to pledge at, uh, AKA. All my girlfriends, older friends, who had attended North Texas prior to me, Ann Simmons, who went on to be, uh, the first Black school board member in Galveston. Uh, Nicki Porter, Dr., Dr. Porter&#039 ; s wife, were all AKA. So, I didn&#039 ; t know what a sorority was, to be honest with you. But I went to the pledge, --to the rush party and they chose me as well as my roommate. And I go, &quot ; What are we doing here?&quot ; Here I&#039 ; m with my pink dress on, and you know. And then I realized my grades had a lot to do with being selected. And I was athletic. And that helped in that we had intramural sports between sororities. And so, myself and some of the other P. E. majors that were AKAs, we took first place football, badminton. You name a sports, we took first place. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: And, and that was the extent of my, (laughs) my promise to Sara Miller in La Marque High School, because I never taught physical education in, when I did become a teacher. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: I never was offered a, a position as physical-ed. I was offered plenty positions as teacher. In fact, my first two years I stayed at North Texas, once I got my Bachelor&#039 ; s. And I started working on my Master&#039 ; s. And I started working at, Congress Junior High School teaching English. BOWIE: And I loved it. I truly loved it until I saw my paycheck. MAYFIELD: Oh. BOWIE: I saw the paycheck and I kid you not, I cried from the office where I walked to pick it up. By the time they took my teacher&#039 ; s dues, my insurance, I didn&#039 ; t have enough to pay rent. So, I went and got a job at JC Penny&#039 ; s. And worked two jobs. And made, made it do what it do. And I thought, You know, I don&#039 ; t know if this teaching is for me.&quot ; I love teaching kids, but, if this is how you are going to reward educators, then maybe I need to, down the road, look at further options. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: And further options came to me. MAYFIELD: So, they, you didn&#039 ; t change, like think, all of a sudden an opportunity came to you. Is that what you mean? BOWIE: Exactly. I had, I had gotten married while working on my master&#039 ; s to, --a friend of mine from the La Marque area. We all went to school together. And you never know someone until you marry them. He went to Vietnam and served the country proudly. However, like many, young men who went to Vietnam, they didn&#039 ; t come back the same way. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: And uh, over time, it became obvious there was, uh, an addiction. MAYFIELD: Oh, okay. BOWIE: And so, being very immature, I walked out of the, the marriage. I&#039 ; m teaching. I&#039 ; m teaching in La Marque and I come home and, you all are doing heroine in my house? I left pots, pans, furniture. I got my clothes, and that was, I didn&#039 ; t look back. I regretted that I left North Texas State because I only needed six hours to finish my master&#039 ; s up there. MAYFIELD: Oh, so you-- BOWIE: --And I walked away from that because he wanted, --and I didn&#039 ; t understand why he wanted so badly to come back here, because he was doing great up there. And he certainly wasn&#039 ; t doing the hard drugs. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: Uh, but we were able to talk about this on his death bed some years ago, and he apologized to me. And, I said, you know, you&#039 ; re forgiven. I just want to know if you&#039 ; re right with Christ. If you&#039 ; re good with Christ, then I, I&#039 ; ll be with you till the end. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: And uh, I went, uh, to his funeral, was in Louisiana. And I think the, the young nephew that was in charge of his services, my ex had told him, &quot ; Here&#039 ; s funds. I want you to reserve a bus and take my whole family up there because a lot of them won&#039 ; t have transportation.&quot ; And so, I brought his son, who I didn&#039 ; t know, --was out, out of terms with the uncle. The son, I grew up with him. I knew him as a little toddler when we first moved back. So, he was always someone I nurtured and-- MAYFIELD: --Right. BOWIE: --at the wake the night before at Progressive [Church] in Texas City. We were going to get up and they, they were going to catch the bus to Louisiana, Opelousas for the funeral. I wasn&#039 ; t going to go. But that night, at the wake, I noticed this kid. He&#039 ; s a young man now. And he&#039 ; s standing by himself. And I said, &quot ; Well, Kevin, are you okay? Do you have some place to go tonight? Are you staying at your dad&#039 ; s&quot ; And he says, no, I&#039 ; m not allowed there. I said, &quot ; Well, where&#039 ; re you going to stay?&quot ; and he said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t know.&quot ; So, I invited him. Took him home. He stayed at my house. And I got him up the next day. Now, mind you, I&#039 ; ve got on something that you wear to the grocery store and some flip flops. And I take him up to where I think presently Constable Derrick Rose is located on, um, Vauthier (Rd). And I drove up and I said, &quot ; Well, okay, Kevin&quot ; , and then the op, --the, the nephew [Vernell Joseph] to my ex, he said, &quot ; He can&#039 ; t get on this bus.&quot ; He said, &quot ; He didn&#039 ; t treat his dad right.&quot ; And he didn&#039 ; t do this. And I said, &quot ; But that&#039 ; s his dad. Let him take this last ride to see his daddy put in the ground&quot ; , --to do that. He said, &quot ; Only if you get on the bus, too.&quot ; That&#039 ; s the only way he can ride. I got on the bus. MAYFIELD: Well, I was just going to ask. (laughs) BOWIE: I was sitting up in the funeral, looking like -- (laughs) MAYFIELD: (laughs)-- Like, wasn&#039 ; t expecting to be here. BOWIE: Oh, I&#039 ; m not dressed, I, I apologize. I&#039 ; m not funeral worthy. But, but I&#039 ; m glad I did because Kevin got to see his dad to the end. And I don&#039 ; t know if they ever made up the, the two or not. I just did what I felt was the right thing at the time. That if it took me, you know, getting on this bus, making this unplanned, unscheduled trip that I was not dressed for, uh, then that&#039 ; s what I&#039 ; ll do. And the, the kid, to this day, you know, he will, he will check in and ask how I&#039 ; m doing. And I&#039 ; ll ask how he&#039 ; s doing. And he&#039 ; s got kids and he&#039 ; s doing well. So, it turned out fine. MAYFIELD: You never know how things are going to turn out. BOWIE: You never know. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: You never know. MAYFIELD: So, um we&#039 ; ll go back a little bit in time. When you were growing up, what kinds of things did you do in your spare time? BOWIE: Well-- MAYFIELD: --When you weren&#039 ; t at church or school. BOWIE: Well, when I wasn&#039 ; t at church, and I wasn&#039 ; t at school, and I wasn&#039 ; t on Jackson Street playing, and I wasn&#039 ; t playing in the neighborhood, my most, --and it wasn&#039 ; t in church, --my most favorite thing in the summer was to come to Texas City Sander&#039 ; s Pool. It was the segregated pool for Blacks that I learned to swim. I learned to dive. And about that time, boys are looking at girls, and girls are looking at boys. And so, it was a place to go and, and meet, young people. And show off on the diving board. And, and, and race in the pool. And do those kind of things. And being athletic, that was just, it was still in my groove. So I would have to say, swimming and then later, playing tennis, once Carver Park got tennis courts. You know, being able to just go out there and play until the lights went off, which was usually about eight-thirty, nine o&#039 ; clock. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: And it&#039 ; s just walking across the street. It&#039 ; s just too easy. MAYFIELD: Right there. BOWIE: Absolutely. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. And you mentioned Waynette. Is, --who was your best friend, growing up? BOWIE: My best friend was Waynette Johnson. And she came from, what I thought, well what I know, was an affluent Black family. Uh, her mom was a stay-at-home mom who had hot cookies waiting for us afternoons when, you know, I went down there. Uh, she had magazines and books, and they had toys and puzzles and games. And I didn&#039 ; t, we didn&#039 ; t have things like that. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: We couldn&#039 ; t afford those kind of things, but, she always made me feel welcome. Her father, Mr. Johnson, was a prominent person in the political arena. And his son, Wayne Jr., wound up being, --I want to say the first Black county commissioner. Uh, yeah. And he subsequently died of a heart attack while in office. And then Stephen Holmes ran for and got that position. But, uh, the Johnsons were, very, very nice to me. They were very, very kind to me. They made me feel a part of the family. And they never were condescending. They never seemed to be bothered that I was there, Monday through Friday. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Oh, okay. BOWIE: Again, once, once I got home, got out of my school clothes, ate the dinner my mom had prepared, because she always had food for us. My next step was, school, --was to go down there. And then Waynette and I, we would play in their driveway. They had a covered driveway and we would play out there. And then sometimes we would walk down the street and play with some of the other girls that lived on the street. MAYFIELD: And you know, you guys, you said you, uh, played together, um, and you spent a lot of time at her house, what kinds of things did she have at her house that you liked doing? BOWIE: Well, the puzzles. And I just took advantage of the books and the magazines that were around the house. I guess she was kind of bored that I wasn&#039 ; t then more physical with, with playing with the dolls. But, you know, I, I didn&#039 ; t have many dolls. We made our own dolls out of Coca-Cola bottles, my sisters and I. And rope. We used rope for hair. And we were able to put it in the bottle, and then we would plait the hair. And just pretend it was a doll. (laughs) It&#039 ; s a Coca-Cola bottle. We&#039 ; re broke. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: But, you improvise and you do what you have to do. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. BOWIE: Christmastime for us was like, okay, everybody&#039 ; s going to get one gift. One toy. And that was it. And you might get a, a piece of clothing. And then the neighbor next door, Mr. Kidd, would always give each of us a bag of hard candy and fresh fruit. We&#039 ; d look for that every Christmas. So, we had a wonderful landlord in the Kidd family in that sense. There were some good, good times on Lake Road. MAYFIELD: How long were you and Waynette friends? BOWIE: We were friends until we went off to college. Both of us were at La Marque High at the same time. We were both academic achievers. Uh, Waynette was fortunate in that she did get the scholarship. And she went up North to a scholarship, up to college on a musical scholarship and academic. And again, I had no clue, why I didn&#039 ; t get offered one, but I thought, &quot ; Okay, I&#039 ; m in the National Honors Society. I&#039 ; m a National Merit semi-finalist.&quot ; You know, I&#039 ; ve done this. I&#039 ; ve done everything. I&#039 ; ve jumped through all the hoops, but I would come to find out because there&#039 ; s always a circling back. When I left Denton, Texas with my husband. My short-lived husband. I was hired by La Marque Independent School District as a social worker and a counselor. Being a counselor and a social worker, I said, &quot ; You know what, let me look at my file.&quot ; And I looked in my file, and this was at La Marque High School. The current new location, not the old La Marque High School, which was, --has been torn down. And in there was a post card from the National Negro Scholarship Fund offering me a scholarship. MAYFIELD: There was a scholarship in there and you had no idea that it was there? BOWIE: That would be correct. MAYFIELD: Why did you not learn of this? BOWIE: The only thing that I could, --could determine of substance, that would be based on facts, --our first year at La Marque High School, in the tenth grade, we were in the auditorium. We were taking a standardized test, which for me is, you know, is really kind of boring. So, I finished early and I&#039 ; m just sitting back in my chair in the auditorium. And I&#039 ; m looking around. And my eyes focus on this kid. And he was, --we called them goat ropers at that time. They were the cowboys, you know, because they had the boots on. They had the big [belt] buckles. And he was saying something to me with his lips. And ---------(?)(?). I could be wrong, but the face gave him away, because it was the same hate filled contentious face I had seen on other occasions. And what he said was, was saying was, &quot ; You Black bitch.&quot ; Okay. I&#039 ; m really not believing this is happening. And I&#039 ; m sitting next to one of my friends. My Black friends. And I said, &quot ; I can&#039 ; t believe this.&quot ; And he says, &quot ; What, what?&quot ; I said, &quot ; What is that guy saying over there? Can you tell?&quot ; &quot ; Oh, he just called you a Black bitch. Unh-uh. Unh-uh. We&#039 ; re going to take care of this.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Nope, don&#039 ; t worry about it.&quot ; Once we finished the test and it was the end of school at the same time, three-thirty. And the two groups, my friend and other, other tenth grade Black boys, there were about five or six of them. Roy James being one of them, even though he was a grade above us, he joined in to defend my integrity. And they were all expelled. The following day, I was called to the office and my mother was sitting there talking to Principal Llewellyn, Jim Llewellyn. And he was informing her that he was going to expel me for being part of the incident, because it was a small little race thing. MAYFIELD: Were you part of that incident, I mean, it no-- BOWIE: --Absolutely not. Absolutely not. MAYFIELD: Hmm. BOWIE: And she said, &quot ; Well, why are you expelling her? I don&#039 ; t understand. She wasn&#039 ; t involved in the fight. She didn&#039 ; t throw a lick. She didn&#039 ; t take a lick. I mean, she wasn&#039 ; t involved, so, I don&#039 ; t think you have a legitimate means to, to expel my daughter, and I will fight this.&quot ; And I think she put enough pressure and enough threats to where he backed off. But I don&#039 ; t think he forgave her, nor me. And I could be wrong. Maybe it was an innocent mistake that I didn&#039 ; t get the notification about the scholarship offer. But I don&#039 ; t think so. But again, you use that to fuel and motivate you to not let anything, nothing, stand in your way. MAYFIELD: So, when you saw that in your file, you were like, that&#039 ; s it. You know, I&#039 ; m not going to uh-- BOWIE: --I, I wish I had removed it. I left it. And I confided in someone several, --uh, a few years down the road, when I was elected at-large to the La Marque School District board of trustees. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: Thank you Mr. Llewellyn. I appreciate you for motivating me. And I shared this with another person, I trusted, about the card. And I was still in the business of being a social worker and had access to files, so I said, let me go back and get that. It was gone. MAYFIELD: Somebody took it? BOWIE: Oh, I&#039 ; m sure he told someone. And someone took it out and destroyed the evidence. MAYFIELD: I mean, interesting, I mean, how much, how much time has passed at this point, that they felt it was necessary to take it out of your-- BOWIE: I don&#039 ; t think they, --I don&#039 ; t think they ever thought I would see that. MAYFIELD: Oh. Okay. BOWIE: You know, who would have thought I would come back as a social worker and have access? MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. BOWIE: Open access to the files of students that I was helping, knowing that my file is sitting there too. You know, being from a poverty-stricken home. Whatever. I was a part of, Upward Bound and La Marque High did push me, and I was exposed to a lot of things at Prairie View for two summers in a row. Um, I did work an internship program at IBM one summer, um, because of my grades. But I don&#039 ; t think they ever expected me to know that that came in. That offer came in. And in telling another school board member, I learned that you can&#039 ; t trust people just because they look like you. MAYFIELD: Hmm. Well, I&#039 ; m sorry about that. BOWIE: That&#039 ; s life. I have sucked it up so many times. That&#039 ; s life. MAYFIELD: Well, um, maybe we&#039 ; ll switch gears a little bit and talk a little bit about your social life. I mean, as a young person, you, you&#039 ; re playing on, --outside with your friends. You&#039 ; re, um, playing tennis, the tennis courts. Been going swimming. But what, what did you do on weekends with your friends for fun? BOWIE: Uh, growing up? Now, my mom would allow us to go to the dances at Lincoln High. Uh, they used to have dances every Friday night. That was it. There were some teen clubs in the Settlement area. BOWIE: The Teenie-Weenie and I couldn&#039 ; t go to those places. MAYFIELD: But what&#039 ; s the Teenie Weenie? BOWIE: It used to be a, an old building that was converted into a, a place where teenagers could come and dance, and socialize. And they sold sodas and soft drinks, uh, chips and stuff like that. But, that was a place I couldn&#039 ; t go. MAYFIELD: Your mom wouldn&#039 ; t allow you to go? BOWIE: No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I could go as long as it was at Lincoln and my brother was going to be there. And he was going to walk there and walk me back. Then I could go. MAYFIELD: What did your brother think about that? BOWIE: He hated it. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: And I can&#039 ; t blame him. MAYFIELD: Uh-huh. BOWIE: Because he had a girlfriend, so he would just say, you wait for me here. Or, I&#039 ; ll be home in twenty minutes, so walk slow. (laughs) MAYFIELD: (laughs) What about movies? Um, were you, did you have movie theaters? BOWIE: We had, we had drive-in theaters. We didn&#039 ; t have a movie theater because the Showboat here in Texas City was segregated at the time. But the drive-through, there was one located on Hwy 3, which is where I saw The Ten Commandments. MAYFIELD: Is that the Bayou Drive-In, or a different one? BOWIE: I don&#039 ; t, I can&#039 ; t remember what it was called. Because I was a little kid when my parents took me there. Um, later there was another drive-in theater on, on the northbound feeder. MAYFIELD: Oh, that&#039 ; s the Bayou. That&#039 ; s the Bayou Drive-In. BOWIE: Northbound feeder I45. And I was dating then, so, she would let me go if they came. If they lived on Jackson Street, she trusted them for some reason. She trusted them. MAYFIELD: Okay. BOWIE: And so, at the time, I was dating a young man who lived on Jackson Street, and she allowed me to go to the movies with him. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Okay. How much did you pay for a ticket? BOWIE: I don&#039 ; t know. He paid for that. MAYFIELD: Oh, smart girl. Okay. Um, were there any places in your community that were considered trouble spots, where your mom said, --I mean, other than the Teeny Weenie? BOWIE: Well, that was the uh-- MAYFIELD: Not really trouble, but-- BOWIE: The NGM, which was a nightclub, so to speak. [Ed. Note: Clarifies the correct name] The G &amp ; M, the G &amp ; M. MAYFIELD: The G &amp ; M. BOWIE: The G &amp ; M. And it was located on Washington, and entertainers would come and perform there, Black entertainers. I never got to see any of them perform. We would sneak over there and listen on the outside when my mom was at work and my daddy was working. (laughs) And I would, I would, --I got a lot of whippings. I was the smartest, but I was also probably the boldest child she had, in that she would say, &quot ; Okay, y&#039 ; all stay at home. Don&#039 ; t go anywhere.&quot ; As soon as she would leave, then I would venture off and you know, find out, well let&#039 ; s go over and get a hamburger. We&#039 ; ll get somebody to order some food, food from, uh, the club on Washington. And that was fun. MAYFIELD: How old were you, then? BOWIE: I was probably between the tenth and the twelfth grade. MAYFIELD: Okay. What about places where there were gossip or political discussions going on. Were there any place that you remember? BOWIE: Not growing up for me. At the time, I didn&#039 ; t know that Mr. Johnson was politically involved until I came back from North Texas State and worked at Ann Simmons&#039 ; campaign over in Galveston. She lost the first year, but she was able to win the second year, becoming, like I said, the first African American female board member over there. And, and, she encouraged me, &quot ; You need to run for the school board in La Marque.&quot ; And I, --you got me in the sorority-- MAYFIELD: You got me doing, --she&#039 ; s got you doing a lot of stuff. BOWIE: She&#039 ; s got me running for school board. You need to do what you need to give back to your community. She would always push, and push, and push to give back, to be involved in your community, to, to, to, to bring somebody else up behind you. And she was a great friend. And she was a great mentor. I went to her funeral. It seems like all my, my truly, truly great friends have, --they passed fairly early. Uh, Waynette, while in college. Ann Simmons died uh, I think my daughter was maybe seven or eight years old when she died. My roommate, my first roommate at North Texas State, Carolyn Ellis, she died. My daughter was still in elementary school. And I remember going to Ann&#039 ; s funeral and being told, --after I sat down, I was speaking. &quot ; When were you all going to tell me I was going to be speaking at this woman&#039 ; s funeral?&quot ; MAYFIELD: Oh. The day of the funeral? BOWIE: I came to grieve. MAYFIELD: Uh-huh. BOWIE: Not to put her on the scene. And I, I had to just suck it up and, and, and speak from my heart and say what I knew. Speak my truths about Ann Simmons. I did the same thing for Carolyn. The only person that I regret that I wasn&#039 ; t able to attend the funeral is Waynette. I was in college and she died. She had a brain tumor and died. And my parents felt it was best if they didn&#039 ; t tell me until after the fact. And I discovered a couple of months when I came home that, that she had passed. And-- MAYFIELD: --Why do you think it was that they didn&#039 ; t want to tell you? BOWIE: Oh, I don&#039 ; t know. I, I, you know, I still ask myself that question. &quot ; You know, why didn&#039 ; t y&#039 ; all tell me?&quot ; And they just thought, we, we thought you&#039 ; d be real sad. Well, yes, I&#039 ; d be sad, but you know what, I&#039 ; ve seen too many people. Uh, David Medlock, we all went to school together at Woodland. And the Medlock family owned a cleaners. And that building still stands on FM 1765, across over on the other side of Willis is where the Front Door Club used to be. Well, that building on the opposite side, is where the funeral was. And he had an older sister and he had an older brother. And he and his older brother were working the funeral. I mean, not the funeral, but the cleaners. And they found their father&#039 ; s gun. And the older brother, --the gun went off. David died. So, it was like, in junior high, there we are singing at his funeral, the choir from Woodland. So, I, I was questioning God about death, and I was able to read a book, The Bridge Over San Luis Rey. MAYFIELD: What was it called? BOWIE: The Bridge Over San Luis Rey. I can&#039 ; t, I can&#039 ; t think of the author&#039 ; s name, now because I know you&#039 ; re going to ask me that. And I can&#039 ; t remember. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: But it speaks about the journey of these anonymous people who cross a bridge that they crossed millions of times. And on this one particular day, the bridge, the land bridge, a rope bridge, fell. They all plunged to their death. And the author takes the lives of five of those characters and goes into in-depth character development. And at the end, my, my takeaway is, what is predestined is God&#039 ; s way of allowing things to happen in your life that you can&#039 ; t explain. So, sometimes you don&#039 ; t look for explanations. You look for acceptance and you appreciate the lives that were lived. MAYFIELD: It is what it is at the time. BOWIE: It is what it is. But it was a great read for me at that time in helping me deal with death. ****interview briefly paused for equipment check*** MAYFIELD: So, tell me your story. BOWIE: So, on Lake Road, you know, my parents worked. We were latchkey kids. My mother did take her father in and, and we took care of him until he died. In the house over on Algeria Street. But, people move in and out of your neighborhood, right? There was one day, both my parents were at work. I don&#039 ; t know where my siblings were. But, actually, this was the first year we moved to Lake Road. The very first year. And they were working. And I&#039 ; m in the garage. And this young man walks in the garage. And I don&#039 ; t, --I, I know he lives behind us in one of the rent houses behind us. A fence separates us. And he corners me and he puts his mouth over my mouth. And I know what he&#039 ; s doing is wrong. And-- MAYFIELD: --How old were you at this time? Because this is when you first moved from Temple? BOWIE: Six or seven. Six. Yeah. [Ed. Note: She makes clarification the years were seven or eight.] MAYFIELD: Okay. BOWIE: And uh, I, I started screaming and he ran off. And that was my first glimpse that there were people that do evil things to little kids, you know? Life is not as perfect as one would think. I told my parents about it when they came home. The next day, that whole family was gone, lock, stock, and barrel. I don&#039 ; t know what my daddy told his mama and daddy, but we never saw them ever again. MAYFIELD: Really? How old was the young man? BOWIE: He had to have been eighteen or nineteen. MAYFIELD: Oh, so he&#039 ; s a man. BOWIE: Exactly. MAYFIELD: Oh. BOWIE: I&#039 ; m telling you this, you know, to smother me. I can&#039 ; t breathe. You&#039 ; re covering my, my face with your, --and I&#039 ; m just glad I, I screamed. MAYFIELD: Uh-huh. That must have been, I mean, I can only imagine what was going through your mind at the time. BOWIE: I didn&#039 ; t, I didn&#039 ; t know what was happening to me. To be honest, I did know, I just knew it wasn&#039 ; t supposed to be. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: And uh, I never ever spoke about it to my mom and dad, but I thank them so much because if he felt comfortable enough doing that to me, who else? And would he have come back, you know? Knowing that he had to have been watching the house to know that they weren&#039 ; t there, you know? MAYFIELD: Right. And so, but, but for the most part, the community was, was safe. I mean, did you leave your doors unlocked in your house? BOWIE: We did. We did. MAYFIELD: Well, okay. I mean, so, a random situation? BOWIE: It, it, well? MAYFIELD: Not so random? BOWIE: Not so random. While we were on Algeria, and I&#039 ; m a teenage now, probably the eleventh or twelfth grade, and again, mama&#039 ; s in school, daddy&#039 ; s working. And one of their friends comes by. And I&#039 ; m going, &quot ; Yeah?&quot ; &quot ; Your parents here?&quot ; and I said, &quot ; You know my parents aren&#039 ; t here. Their cars aren&#039 ; t here.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; What time do they get off? I&#039 ; m going to, I&#039 ; m going to come in and wait.&quot ; He&#039 ; s never given me reason not to trust him ever before. But this time he did something. Touched me in a way that was disconcerting, and I ushered him to the door. I found my voice and told him, &quot ; You will never do this again because I&#039 ; m telling my daddy. So, I don&#039 ; t know what kind of friend you are, but you&#039 ; re not a friend. You have three sons, and you will come here and try to do this to me?&quot ; I didn&#039 ; t keep my word and I didn&#039 ; t tell my parents. I thought, you know, they play cards together. His wife is related to my daddy down the road, you know, fourth, fifth cousins removed. I didn&#039 ; t say anything. I came back home from North Texas and I&#039 ; m sitting there with the two sisters below me. And I said, &quot ; Y&#039 ; all remember so-and-so?&quot ; And they say, &quot ; Yeah.&quot ; And I could see their look when they said yeah. I said, &quot ; Well did he ever try anything with you?&quot ; And he had. He didn&#039 ; t succeed, but at that point, now he&#039 ; s an old dirty--. I&#039 ; m not going to say what he was. At that point, we did tell our parents, collectively, the three of us that was still there. Laverne was gone. Wilma, of course, God forbid that he would try anything with her, but that wasn&#039 ; t happening because we always had to watch her. Uh, he never came back to the house again. MAYFIELD: So, from the time that it happened to you to the time-- BOWIE: Several years went by. MAYFIELD: Several years went by. So, you had to, you were forced to sort of face this person either when your parents went over there or they came over to your house. Hmm. I can&#039 ; t-- BOWIE: --Strange, but I guess we were--. I was never--. My parents never had the sex talk with me. I, I mean, --what I know, I had to learn from friends, or experiences. But that was just not something they felt comfortable talking to us about. But that was one thing I was going to change about myself and my relationship with my daughter. Because I want to know if anybody--. And then, when I had a grandson, I had the same conversation with him. I need to know if anybody, anybody says or does anything to make you feel uncomfortable or touches you. I need to know because I&#039 ; m going to prison. MAYFIELD: (laughs) Right. BOWIE: (laughs) I&#039 ; m, I&#039 ; m not going to allow that. I&#039 ; m not going to allow it to happen to anybody else in my bloodline. This curse is going to stop. MAYFIELD: So, you put an end to that curse. Good. And I&#039 ; m glad it didn&#039 ; t have to follow your family. Such a, such a situation. Um, you talked about your dad a lot. And you know, how your parents worked. How did they get to work? BOWIE: My daddy could fix any kind of old, broke down vehicle. And he&#039 ; d, he would buy her, my mom, used cars when they could afford it. And they would pay on them in installments. In fact, Don&#039 ; s Used Car Lot on FM 1765, it&#039 ; s a, --it&#039 ; s still a used car lot, but that belonged to Don. But he could, he could get anything running. So, for the longest, you know, they, they made due with used cars until they were, --became more affluent and had more excess money for those kinds of things. Uh, my mom bought her brand new car one day. And I was driving and I asked could I, you know, I had this thing about driving, right? And she allows, she says, &quot ; Sure&quot ; , you know. (laughs) I get in front of Don&#039 ; s Car Lot and this huge cream-colored Labrador runs in front of her car. Her brand new car. And he hits it. He bounces off. He gets up and he&#039 ; s okay. But I pullover and look at her brand new car-- MAYFIELD: --Oh, no. BOWIE: But you know, I went home and showed it and told them. My mother is an avid animal lover. I don&#039 ; t know what happened in her childhood, but she said, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t worry about, is the dog okay?&quot ; MAYFIELD: (laughs) She&#039 ; s going to ask you ; she was more concerned with the dog. BOWIE: Is the dog okay? MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. BOWIE: And I think, where&#039 ; s my whipping I usually get? (laughs) MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: Where&#039 ; s the beating? MAYFIELD: I&#039 ; ve been sitting here for so long worrying to talk to you. (laughs) BOWIE: I don&#039 ; t believe it, but thank you, Jesus. (laughs) Thank you, Jesus. MAYFIELD: Thank God it was a dog, you know, right? Mm-hmm. BOWIE: Now, I don&#039 ; t know if I ever mentioned to you, my sister, Wilma? MAYFIELD: You did mention to her, her to me. BOWIE: Wilma, yes. MAYFIELD: Yes. BOWIE: Uh, she was a great joy to our family. I didn&#039 ; t realize Wilma was different with Down syndrome, really understand the differences until, maybe, like, I was in first grade. I knew she couldn&#039 ; t say certain words. And she couldn&#039 ; t say Thelma. Uh, because she could say, Whaba. And I got stuck with that for the rest of my life. I loved her to death, but I hated being called, Whaba! (laughs) I&#039 ; d be in Lake Road in my classes and I&#039 ; m in the second, third, fourth, fifth. Starting about the third grade, fourth grade, she started her monthly cycle and would come in, crying, snot, tears. And her teacher, her special ed. teacher, they would escort her to my classroom as if I could stop the cramps. And here I am, in the third grade, and she&#039 ; s yelling my name. And everybody&#039 ; s going, &quot ; What&#039 ; s wrong with your sister? And they had this look in their face, like condescending and I, I said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s my sister. She, she has, she&#039 ; s, she&#039 ; s mentally retarded. And if you&#039 ; ve got something to say, we&#039 ; re fixing to fight, okay?&quot ; MAYFIELD: Oh. BOWIE: Don&#039 ; t talk about my sister. That&#039 ; s not going to happen. And we rocked along until Wilma aged out of special ed. And my mother felt like she needed to create an opportunity for her to be around people who were like her. So that, you know, we would be limited in terms of what we had to do in terms of care for her while she worked. Because she did work nights. And somehow or another, she wound up taking her to Austin State School. And they told us, don&#039 ; t come back for thirty days. We need to get her adjusted to a new location. And we thought, &quot ; Okay.&quot ; And so, we go back thirty days later, everybody. And we have our lunch packed and everything. And they said, &quot ; Well, here she is.&quot ; And we&#039 ; re going, &quot ; Where, where is she?&quot ; And she was standing in front of us. But to make their life easier, --my sister had long beautiful hair, but they had cut it so short. She had deep scratches in her face, on her arms from others. And we looked at each other. Laverne was the one, she said, &quot ; Unh-uh-uh-uh, Mama, Mama, go sign her out of here. Uh, we&#039 ; re going to take her home. We&#039 ; re taking her home, now.&quot ; And we took her home and we never looked back at that place. That was the most tragic place. And we can only imagine what she must have felt. But we were not going to give up on giving her a place where she could work, play, and have friends. And we would talk about a group of people who sponsor, uh, a non-profit for Down Syndrome. And they suggested, please don&#039 ; t give up, try Mexia State School. It&#039 ; s night and day from Austin State School. And my mom did. She didn&#039 ; t wait thirty days. She went back in two weeks, just to check. And my sister was thriving. She bragged as best as she could communicate. She had a job. And she wanted to go buy a hamburger because she had her own money. And I said, &quot ; Well, what&#039 ; s your job?&quot ; And then they explained, well, they put the little salt and pepper, and the knives, and the forks, and packaging. Then it goes down the line and they seal them up. But that was the best place for her. She truly loved the girls in her dorm. They loved her. We would go get her four or five times a year. Laverne and I would take turns, you know, picking her up, bringing her back. And she would get home and she would be happy to be home. But by the third day, on the third day, she wasn&#039 ; t ready to rise, but she was ready to get up out of that house and go back to Mexia State School. So, we were able to say, you know, okay, we&#039 ; ve got a good niche, where she&#039 ; s comfortable. She&#039 ; s being well-cared for. And she is thriving. And, and so, we finally had a happy day for her. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. She knew it. There was, um, you know, a place where she was kind of treated like an adult, right? BOWIE: Exactly. MAYFIELD: Because she is having a job. BOWIE: And she had her purse. She put her little money in her purse. She had her bedroom. She had her roommate. She had her own furniture. She was able to pick out her, her bedspread, and, and decorate it. Now mind you, her mentality was that probably, six, five or six-year-old. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: Uh, but she was a sweet person. She was gentle and could dance. Oh, my God. I have two left feet. Two left feet. I&#039 ; ve tried to embarrass myself by dancing, but my sister, Wilma, could dance. Could dance for days. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: I remember one Christmas, she loved Christmas. And we hired a friend of ours to come. He had a costume. And he came to the house, and what we had done, we had taken her Christmas presents from the tree and put in his bag. Well, before he got there, she noticed her presents were gone. She knew which ones were her presents. She was livid. She was fired up. She was stomping around, &quot ; Where are my presents? I want my presents!&quot ; But when Santa Claus came, and he gave her, her presents, oh, my goodness, she was, she was elated. So, we tried to share as many really great memories. Create great memories for her. Whenever she came home, because those were special moments for us. And they were special moments for her-- MAYFIELD: Right. BOWIE: --as well. MAYFIELD: Right. Well, um, she sounds like she really kept you guys on your toes. BOWIE: She did. She did. And while she was home. I didn&#039 ; t mind watching her. If that was going to be my task for the day, then I was going to make sure nobody harmed her. That was for sure. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How much older was she than you? BOWIE: Uh, she was now what year? I have her birthday somewhere and I could tell you, but I&#039 ; m not going to rumple through these papers. She was probably about four or five years older than me. MAYFIELD: Four or five years, okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, when did you learn to drive? Like, when did you officially learn to drive? BOWIE: I officially learned to drive when I was in the ninth grade. I dated a, an older guy at Lincoln who had a &#039 ; 55 blue Chevy. And I just wanted to learn how to drive a stick shift. I, you know, I, I couldn&#039 ; t drive anything. But he, he was patient. He taught me. And, and he would, he would let me drive his car. And he would come over and visit me at my mom&#039 ; s house. Of course, she,-- that was one of the few guys that she allowed to come visit, because she liked his family. And he was a, he was a nice person. He was a very nice person. Just, --he went off to college, and you know, long distance relationships don&#039 ; t generally last. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. So, um, you know, La Marque is I guess, like a small town, right? BOWIE: Right MAYFIELD: Where did you get your local and national news? BOWIE: Uh, Jet Magazine, Ebony Magazine, The La Marque Times. They were my news source. TV. MAYFIELD: When did you guys get a television set? BOWIE: We got a television set when we moved to Lake Road. There were limited channels. And I have to blame my vision, my need for glasses on being too close because I would sit on the floor, prop my feet up on the little table where the TV was, and watch some of the greatest cartoons ever made. And because I don&#039 ; t remember having the problems in the first grade that I started having. And by the end of the second grade, you, I&#039 ; ve got pictures of me, light blue glasses. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: That were god-ugly. And I, --I blame that on television. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. They always said, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t sit too close to the television.&quot ; BOWIE: They did. That&#039 ; s a truism. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Um, so, for health and safety, uh, you said that you left your doors unlocked. BOWIE: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Uh, and you pretty much felt safe walking around your community. Um, were there any fires, or disasters, um, in your community. I know that you came after the 1947 disaster. BOWIE: Uh, yeah, that was after the uh, Texas City explosion. MAYFIELD: Yeah. Yeah. BOWIE: Uh, not that I can remember. Weather-wise, Hurricane Carla came and went. A lot of rain, but we lived there on Lake Road. We, we didn&#039 ; t get flooded. We didn&#039 ; t get any damage to the house, so it was just another day with a lot of rain for me. MAYFIELD: So you guys stayed in the house. BOWIE: We didn&#039 ; t, yeah, we didn&#039 ; t evacuate. MAYFIELD: So, I guess it really didn&#039 ; t impact you or your neighborhood. Did any of your neighbors have any issues? BOWIE: Nope. MAYFIELD: Oh. Good. Good. BOWIE: No, none of us. MAYFIELD: Uh, what about when someone was ill or injured, what, where would you go to see a doctor or to hospital? BOWIE: Uh, my mother had us treated by Dr. Hook and Dr. Tree. They were prominent physicians over in Texas City. MAYFIELD: Hook and Dr. Tree? BOWIE: Yes. That&#039 ; s where we went to get our medical treatment. Our vaccinations, --there was like a health, a small health district. And sometimes we got vaccinations at Dr. Hook&#039 ; s and Dr. Tree&#039 ; s office. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. And how would you get there? Would you guys drive? BOWIE: Uh, drive. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: Because I, --we would have to leave Lake Road or Algeria and drive, way over to, --I don&#039 ; t know if you know, what is this street where Bradshaw&#039 ; s Florist is? MAYFIELD: I don&#039 ; t know the answer to that. BOWIE: You don&#039 ; t know that? Y&#039 ; all are not from Texas City? (laughs) MAYFIELD: (laughs) Sorry. BOWIE: Well, it&#039 ; s a, it&#039 ; s a funny shaped building. You can&#039 ; t miss it. And someone bought it and made it into a house. It looks horrible now. But it was the neatest doctor&#039 ; s office because I&#039 ; d never seen any kind of architect that looked like that. And right down the street from there, there, --is where, Texas City, the annex is located. MAYFIELD: Okay. BOWIE: Building Inspections used to be located. MAYFIELD: Oh. BOWIE: There&#039 ; s a, if you go back the opposite way like you&#039 ; re going toward Sixth Street, but-- MAYFIELD: --Is that that sort of strange, kind of, oh, okay. BOWIE: Yes, yes, that&#039 ; s it. MAYFIELD: Oh, I know exactly what you&#039 ; re talking about. BOWIE: That&#039 ; s Dr. Hook and Dr. Tree&#039 ; s medical office. MAYFIELD: Oh, okay. Yes, I know. Yep. Exactly where you&#039 ; re talking about. Yeah, that is a very strange sort of architect. I was, hmmm. That&#039 ; s very strange. BOWIE: Well, that&#039 ; s where they housed and practiced their medicine. MAYFIELD: Okay. Okay. Um, so where did your family shop when they went grocery shopping? BOWIE: Oh, well, there was Bogatta&#039 ; s on Hwy 3. There was Slaton&#039 ; s Grocery, which was right down of the street, off of Algeria on uh, FM 1765. There was Weingarten&#039 ; s. Uh, pretty much-- MAYFIELD: --Was Weingarten&#039 ; s in Texas City like off of uh-- BOWIE: --1765. MAYFIELD: Oh, okay, 1765. BOWIE: Yeah. Uh, let&#039 ; s see, where else? There was uh, businesses. There was, let&#039 ; s see. Where did we shop? Oh, my daddy eventually became a Lincoln owner. He shopped at Bob Higgins&#039 ; Lincoln Dealership, which was Black-owned. We used Dr. Brantford, was our dentist. Uh, of course, Mainland Funeral Home was where most of the Black families did their business. Uh, Mapp&#039 ; s&#039 ; Pharmacy was right across, right down the street from Algeria. MAYFIELD: Shirley Mapp&#039 ; s&#039 ; husband owned that? BOWIE: Yes. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: Yes, my oldest sister, Laverne worked for him before she went off to college. O. C. Matthews, whenever we had plumbing problems, they would come and take care of those issues. We had a neighbor who was one of the smartest guy in the world, Mr. V. A. Change. And he did HVAC work for neighbors at, at very nominal costs. We would walk while at Lake Road to Cooper&#039 ; s Bar-B-Q Pit. Best barbecue in the world. MAYFIELD: Was that your favorite restaurant? BOWIE: No, this was a little joint, a little barbecue spot off of Lake Road. Um, but let&#039 ; s see. I&#039 ; m trying to find where we shopped. Okay. Ah, here it is. JC Penny&#039 ; s, downtown Texas City. That&#039 ; s where the old museum is located. BOWIE: We did a lot of shopping there. Uh, across the street from there was Zale&#039 ; s Jewelry Store, and so, all of our class rings, we bought from there. Of course, we bought them on lay-away. But, we, we nevertheless, we all, I don&#039 ; t know where mine ever turned up. I don&#039 ; t even know where my college ring is, to be honest, I think I left it when I was leaving that, that apartment. (laughs) MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: I left everything. There was also a nice women&#039 ; s clothing place called Eve&#039 ; s. And it was in a strip center uh, it&#039 ; s a dilapidated apartments now. The Bostick&#039 ; s used to be in that same little strip ; Bostick&#039 ; s restaurant. But Eve&#039 ; s had fine women&#039 ; s clothing. My mom would coordinate her little church hats and her little church suits. I could never understand the church hat thing, because I just don&#039 ; t do them. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: Uh, you know? But she would have her little hat collections, and she would get them from Eve&#039 ; s. Um, we also shopped at Sears and Roebucks. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Were there any places that you wanted to shop but couldn&#039 ; t? BOWIE: Oh, there were lots on Sixth Street. Lots. A lot of places on Sixth Street. I even, --when I worked at La Marque ISD as a social worker, I had a unique experience in that, one of the students that I was given to mentor to, that was having some difficulties, her mother was a prominent lady, and she owned a business. And she had two daughters. One with learning disabilities and another, just, pageant-ready beautiful. And she didn&#039 ; t treat the kids the same. And so, the one child would come to school not clean and not taken care of every month. And as a social worker, it became my job to do the investigation. Get people involved to talk to the mother to try to remediate the situation. And she, she didn&#039 ; t like being told that she wasn&#039 ; t taking care of her daughter. And she was going to report me. And she never did. But it, it just, --it hurt me to see kids, being mistreated. And she was one of several kids that I came across at Bayou Road Middle School who, whose lives were not as bright as they should have been. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. It must have been difficult for you to, when you&#039 ; re, sometimes when you feel like your hands are tied, you know. BOWIE: It, it, it is. But you do the best that you can. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: And you make the people aware, who need to, to be-- MAYFIELD: Right. BOWIE: --made aware, the profe--, the professionals beyond La Marque ISD social worker. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: Uh, and you sleep good at night knowing that you&#039 ; ve done, you did all of the steps that you could do and then you turn it over to other people who-- MAYFIELD: Right. BOWIE: --have a little bit more power. MAYFIELD: That&#039 ; s all you can do. BOWIE: Absolutely. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. When you guys were, were young, uh, were younger, uh, did you eat um, I know your mom worked a lot and your dad worked a lot. But what about family meals? Did you have opportunities for family meals? BOWIE: You know what? MAYFIELD: Eat on the go? BOWIE: Monday through Friday, everybody did on the run. I&#039 ; m coming in, taking my school clothes off, eating, and I&#039 ; m jetting off down the street if I don&#039 ; t have Wilma that day. Uh, my brother&#039 ; s out playing with his friend, so, everybody ate at different times. The times that we sat down together was Sundays. And sometimes Saturdays and holidays. But the traditional family meal where everybody sits, and blesses the food, and everybody talks about how, --what a lovely day they had, um, no. We were trying to survive. MAYFIELD: So, even on the weekends, did you guys talk about things, or was it still sort of -- BOWIE: --Everybody was tired from working two or three jobs. And we had to clean house. We had to wash windows every Saturday. Why? I don&#039 ; t know because the windows weren&#039 ; t dirty every week. But we had so many chores on Saturday, we were too pooped to parley in family dinners, I&#039 ; m sorry. MAYFIELD: (laughs) Um, so you&#039 ; re growing up and the schools are segregated, when did you start, getting the inkling about civil rights movement? When did that start coming, sort of, salient for you? BOWIE: The first day I walked into La Marque High School. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: That day in the auditorium. The next day being called in and being threatened with expulsion knowing that academically, and I was not a troublemaker. People judging you based on your skin color and not wanting to be around you, uh, at a prom. Come on, dude. For real? So, by the time, uh, Martin Luther King was assassinated, April the fourth, I was not a nice person to be around in gym. MAYFIELD: In Gym? BOWIE: No. MAYFIELD: Uh-oh. BOWIE: That day. I, I played a little rougher than normal. I apologized later. Not that that makes it acceptable behavior. But I was a little bit rough on the basketball court. And if someone said something, you know, my thinking was, you killed this man that just wanted people to get along? And you want me to respect you? Today, it&#039 ; s not going to happen. Now we&#039 ; ll be okay tomorrow. But today, I&#039 ; m grieving and I&#039 ; m grieving in my special way. It may not be right, but this is what, this is what I&#039 ; m going to do. And then you see John F. Kennedy. And I&#039 ; m began to learn and look and listen to Malcolm X and read about him. And by this time, I&#039 ; m, you know, going off to college. And you get up there, and you know, we&#039 ; re not being treated right at Jack-n-the-Box. Come on. Your food isn&#039 ; t that great, anyway. And, and, and so we boycotted. And, and I, --peaceful boycott. We have sharpshooters up on the fifth floor with guns pointed at us. And it&#039 ; s like, you know-- MAYFIELD: Is this when you&#039 ; re at college? BOWIE: Yes. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: I said, well, you come to realize that the world is not perfect and it&#039 ; s far from being perfect, still today. MAYFIELD: Did you participate, participate in any sit-ins or boycotts, here in Texas City? BOWIE: No. MAYFIELD: Was there, was that happening? BOWIE: There were boycotts. Uh, there was, small boycotts from people I wouldn&#039 ; t follow. MAYFIELD: Okay. BOWIE: I think you have to pick and choose and know when you&#039 ; re on the side of righteousness, and when you&#039 ; re being used. And I don&#039 ; t like being used. At North Texas State, I was like in a struggle between my close girlfriends who wanted us to do the sorority thing, and then my call for Blackness, which meant, no. I&#039 ; m going to join the African Student Union. We&#039 ; re going to feed people in the hood. We&#039 ; re going to tutor kids and we&#039 ; re going to mentor these kids on the way?? So, all my time, extra free time, was spent in what we were told is called, the other side of the railroad tracks, Shack Town. So, several of the football players had apartments over there because it was cheap. But we would cook in their kitchen and, and feed the kids. We would tutor them. And, so I began to dress different. You know, I would have my fatigues. I would have my army jackets. My &#039 ; fro was bigger than my body. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: I was very vocal. Um, and my sorority sisters, they had a meeting. They had an intervention. You&#039 ; re not dressing, you&#039 ; re not representing us, you know. You used to dress and, and put your stockings on. That&#039 ; s just--. You&#039 ; ve got to be kidding. First of all, I don&#039 ; t have money to buy--. I, I went in debt to pledge. Okay? These clothes, I came up here with jeans. I had plenty of jeans. But the jacket, yeah, I bought the jacket. Okay. I&#039 ; ll give you that. But I didn&#039 ; t spend money on frilly, sorority, it just, it wasn&#039 ; t me. And I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll tell y&#039 ; all what, this is not a good fit for me.&quot ; And, I moved out because we had our own little dorm. And I moved out and I didn&#039 ; t look back. MAYFIELD: Hmm. So, you quit the sorority at that time? BOWIE: I, --you can&#039 ; t, you never quit. You can always be an AKA. But that particular group of girls, after they did the intervention, I went back to intervene on them because my younger sister, Jacquelyn come up there. And for some stupid reason, she wanted to join the AKAs and I knew the legacy I left with them was--. It, it didn&#039 ; t end well because while I was pledging, and I&#039 ; m not supposed to discuss this. They did some things to me that I didn&#039 ; t take. Being a tomboy, I fought back. MAYFIELD: Hmm. BOWIE: And some [one] of the bigger sisters that I punched-- MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: --held a grudge. And so, when my sister finally comes up there and pledges, she&#039 ; s black-balled. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: Because of me. So, I go back into their little ceremonial area and give them a piece of my mind. And, and I told my sister, &quot ; Now take your butt home and join a grad chapter when you finish. Forget these girls.&quot ; MAYFIELD: Did she listen to you? BOWIE: She did. MAYFIELD: Hmm. BOWIE: I said, forget these girls, are a holding onto something, that no matter what you do, they&#039 ; re going to make your life so miserable that you will want to quit. And that&#039 ; s what they will do. They will try to break you. They tried to break me and I wouldn&#039 ; t allow anybody to do what they did to me that particular night. And my face with contacts in my eyes, I wasn&#039 ; t having it. MAYFIELD: Hmm. I hear stories about-- BOWIE: The hazing is -- MAYFIELD: Hazing. Mm-hmm. BOWIE: --is, is real. BOWIE: And that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s not sisterhood to me. And as Dean of pledges the next the semester, I had a young lady, --I come to discover, she was pregnant. MAYFIELD: Hmm. BOWIE: And they were trying to do things to her, and I, I almost thought I had to come to blows and say, &quot ; You&#039 ; re not going to put your hands on her. You&#039 ; re not. I will report you to law enforcement.&quot ; I don&#039 ; t care about the sorority. They allowed her in. But when she was pinned, they turned, --some of them turned their back on her. I just walked out. I, I was done at that point. And I could have done great things in that organization, but I would rather be in Shack Town helping poor Black kids learn how to read, --cook breakfast for them, than to be with a bunch of pretentious heifers. MAYFIELD: (laughs) Okay. BOWIE: And, and this is, --has nothing to do with grad chapters. Please, AKAs out there in the universe, I&#039 ; m not talking about y&#039 ; all. I&#039 ; m talking about one particular chapter and one particular small group of girls from Houston, Texas. That tried to make my life miserable, and I just, --you don&#039 ; t slap me in the face. You don&#039 ; t do that. In my eyes? No, you don&#039 ; t do that. Not from where I come from. On 14 Algeria and, and 122 Lake Road? It&#039 ; s going to be a scuffle. MAYFIELD: (laughs) You&#039 ; re tough. You were tough. BOWIE: I, I didn&#039 ; t lose the scuffle. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: I had to run and jump out the window because, (laughs) her and her crew was after me. So, the big sisters, my friends, Ann Simmons, they hid me for a couple of days, till thing--. I said, &quot ; Why do I have to hide? I, I didn&#039 ; t do anything wrong.&quot ; &quot ; Would you let somebody do what she did to you?&quot ; &quot ; Well no,&quot ; I said, well don&#039 ; t tell me what I should have done. She shouldn&#039 ; t have done what she did. And, she wouldn&#039 ; t have suffered her consequences. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: But those girls held their grudge for the longest and took it out on my sister. MAYFIELD: Hmm. Sorry to hear that. Well, so, one of the things was the desegregation of schools, right? BOWIE: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: So, you, you attended Lincoln High School in ninth grade. Um, and then you attended La Marque High School in tenth grade, or did you leave half-way through ninth grade? BOWIE: No. I finished my ninth grade, my entire year at Lincoln High School. I still go to their reunions. I go to La Marque&#039 ; s reunion every now and then. Not so often. But I think I&#039 ; m going to go the next couple of ones because, now it&#039 ; s about seeing those same people who was truly, truly friends, good friends. So, I could just thank them. MAYFIELD: When did you, like, learn about the vote? Did you-- BOWIE: My mom. Oh, my God. She got involved with the Wayne Johnsons and, uh, the Henderson&#039 ; s who were political activists in the Black community. Rev. Benford. And I, I always saw her involved with the registration process. Get out the vote. Picking up people and taking them to the polls, you know. Speaking up and endorsing candidates, things of that nature. And I admired her, you know, from a distance. And I never told her, and I think I&#039 ; ve told her since I, I&#039 ; ve become an adult, that I really appreciate the example that she set up for, for all of us kids, that you did things that most people wouldn&#039 ; t do. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: So, I think my first taste and exposure to political activism was watching my mom. MAYFIELD: How old were you when you first voted? BOWIE: Eighteen. MAYFIELD: Were you still in Texas City at the time, or did you go up to vote when you were in Denton. BOWIE: I voted in Denton. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Um, you were mentioning that Rev. Benford and Mr. Jackson were important leaders in your community. Were there other, uh, people in the community that stood out? BOWIE: Ah. The movers and the shakers at that time were, were the Henderson&#039 ; s, Roosevelt Henderson, and his brother, (Ed. Note: Johnnie Henderson) uh, Wayne Johnson. Um, also, uh, there was another gentleman. He worked on the wharfs, but he, uh, think he ran for city commissioner before Porter, Mr. Porter. David Porter is his name. And, you know, you read. You pick up the paper and you&#039 ; re reading about people that look like you. And I&#039 ; m thinking, oh, okay, this is pretty neat. I kind of like that. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: Ah. I can even remember picking up the paper, and this has nothing to do with the era, but reading about Dedrick Johnson. And I&#039 ; m thinking, this dude is, --he&#039 ; s young. He&#039 ; s making things happen. But the newspaper put into full force who was doing what in the Black community from a political standpoint. MAYFIELD: Okay, so, um, you use the newspaper as a way to find out what was happening in your community. Who were the, you know, what, what sort of important topics, were on the agenda. Oh, one of the things that I heard was that Mr. Henderson was a very important person in the community because he helped bring the College of the Mainland to the area? Or like-- BOWIE: Yes, he was. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: Now, I, I made the cardinal sin when I decided within, --and enough people, Dr. Porter&#039 ; s wife, Nicki Porter, Carolyn Ellis, Ann Simmons, said, &quot ; Hey, you, you need to run for school board. You&#039 ; re an educator. You&#039 ; ll be an asset. We&#039 ; re going to help you get elected&quot ; . So, I had my, I had my campaign team preformed. And I didn&#039 ; t go through the machine. (laughs) MAYFIELD: What&#039 ; s the machine? BOWIE: The machine is the Henderson&#039 ; s, and the Porters, and Rev. Benford, and a few others. I didn&#039 ; t get their permission. So, I went to a meeting to introduce myself, and now they were there. And I was told by one of my sorority sisters, and we&#039 ; re friends now, &quot ; You didn&#039 ; t get permission from us to run for school board.&quot ; And I was a different person then. I was respectful, but I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m sorry, I didn&#039 ; t know I needed your permission to do what God led me to do or what my heart felt it was right for me to do.&quot ; You know? I would hope that I have your support, but if I don&#039 ; t, God bless you. (laughs) MAYFIELD: (laughs) So, you circumvented the machine. BOWIE: I, I didn&#039 ; t have their support, but I was the top vote-getter. At that was at-large. And I think it was over fourteen hundred votes. Uh, which was an accumulation of not just Black voters, but I got a lot of white votes from teachers, from educators who knew that I was an educator, who knew I had been involved in La Marque. But we, we got to, all got to be good friends. And they embraced me after I won. And we&#039 ; ve been on the right page since. But I don&#039 ; t think people need to get permission. Maybe I should have, have. And my mom said, &quot ; You should have told Rev. Benford.&quot ; Why? Was he going to give me a donation? No, I&#039 ; m joking. (laughs) I&#039 ; m joking, everybody! MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: I&#039 ; m joking. I do advise people, now, if you&#039 ; re going to run for office, be sure you cover all the bases. You talk to all the people who, who are politically elected, so they don&#039 ; t feel disrespected. MAYFIELD: Okay, okay. So, so during the time of the civil rights movement here in, in, in, our area, and I know that Martin Luther King was an important national figure, was there anyone else that you were following who was an important national figure? BOWIE: National? MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: Um, Barbara Jordan, of course, uh, you know. MAYFIELD: Barbara Jordan? BOWIE: Shirley Chisholm. MAYFIELD: Oh, so these are women? BOWIE: Yes. MAYFIELD: So, uh, that was going to be my question. Were there any women who played a role in the movement that, that you followed. BOWIE: Those two. MAYFIELD: What was, um, so, you said Shirley-- BOWIE: Chisholm. MAYFIELD: And who was the other? BOWIE: Barbara Jordan. UT graduate. MAYFIELD: Why were you compelled, to, um, to, you know, follow them, I guess? BOWIE: They were, they were dynamic women who worked tirelessly to represent the unrepresented. They didn&#039 ; t have personal agendas like some politicians. There&#039 ; s some politicians, regardless of color, who have agendas, and you know, I kind of like to just see what they&#039 ; re about before I can embrace or accept. But those two clearly captured my imagination and gave me thoughts of one day, you know. You know, what&#039 ; s going to be my legacy? You know? How are people going to remember me? How&#039 ; s my daughter&#039 ; s children and their children going to remember me? What&#039 ; s going to be my legacy? MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: I think, uh, um, Chuck Doyle talks about the gap, you know, from the birth year to the year that you, you, you die and make, make it count. And so, I&#039 ; m consumed with that. Particularly lately, because I&#039 ; m getting older. MAYFIELD: Oh, right. Okay. Uh, did churches play a role in the movement that you noticed? BOWIE: Yes, because you had all of the min, --all of the ministers. Their ministerial alliances, different alliances were influential in getting the vote out with their, uh, congregation. And so, people tended to listen to the recommendations of the ministers. And, and, that was good, for a while. But at a certain point, when you go off to college, and you start looking at life through a different set of lenses, and you want to formulate your own opinions as to who you&#039 ; ll vote for, uh, things change a little bit. There&#039 ; s a little shift. MAYFIELD: Do you think that when a minister said you should vote for this person, mainly the congregation voted for that person? Or do you think that there was sort of a political discussion within the church? BOWIE: Mostly, they mostly voted for those people. And I vote for a person because of their work ethics, their character, their contributions to the community, and sometimes they&#039 ; re white, and sometimes they&#039 ; re Black, and sometimes they&#039 ; re Mexican American. But I believe that, uh, to be an educated voter, you have to do your research, and discovery, and find out as much as you can about a person that that wants to represent you. People can tell you anything. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: That doesn&#039 ; t mean that they are going to do right by their position once elected. Actions tell you everything. Talk is cheap. MAYFIELD: Actions speak louder than words. BOWIE: Exactly. MAYFIELD: Did, um, Texas City have an NAACP in the, like a representative in the community. BOWIE: Uh, my mother was a member. And I joined. But then I went through that phase at North Texas State, and the NAACP Alright. Always doing what you&#039 ; re told. But I have great respect for the NAACP now. I think you go through different phases in your life, you know. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: As a young adult, then you realize, okay, they&#039 ; ve accomplished a lot. It may not have been the way I would have gone about every little detail, but look at what the, look at the good. MAYFIELD: Did any of your friends join the NAACP? BOWIE: Ah, several of them did. In fact, my sister moved back here. Uh, Jacquelyn moved back here to the Houston-Texas City area from Indianapolis after her husband passed. And one of the first things she did, was join the N, NAACP chapter, the Mainland branch. MAYFIELD: Um, did you, were there any other, like groups here, um, you know, fighting for civil rights that you belonged to other than, like the national chapter? BOWIE: Well, there was a time I was a, --I&#039 ; m not a present member of the NAACP. But there was a time when I was. And I was active. But, again, you evolve. Your, your life changes when you take on other responsibilities. I&#039 ; m involved in a lot of civic organizations that are impactful in terms of providing scholarships to young people. My, my avenue has just kind of shifted. And in order to do some of the things that I want to accomplish, I have to be a part of a broad city-wide organization. And so, I don&#039 ; t limit myself to just Black organizations. I&#039 ; m a member of the rotary club, and-- MAYFIELD: I mean back, back in the day. BOWIE: Back in the day, it was all segregated. MAYFIELD: Okay. Okay. BOWIE: And, and to some extent, it&#039 ; s changed tremendously. You see more people involved with, uh, Texas City ISD foundation, Rotary Club, Lion&#039 ; s Club, Optimists Club, things of that nature. But when I first retired from, uh, Amoco-BP, I started joining. I joined the Optimist Club. I joined the Lion&#039 ; s Club. I, I just began to, to, because I wanted to know how other people see, think, and do things. And when the Nick Gary Foundation was formed, and I&#039 ; m out here soliciting money for scholarships ; you have to know everybody. And you needed to get along with everybody. And not be divisive. There was a time in my life where I was divisive, in college. MAYFIELD: Put the hammer down? BOWIE: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Well, I think we&#039 ; re getting close to the end of our interview. BOWIE: Okay. MAYFIELD: And uh, I was just curious if there was anything else that you&#039 ; d like to share that we haven&#039 ; t really touched upon. I mean, I remember, you were talking in our preliminary interview about the Bostick sisters. BOWIE: (laughs) Let&#039 ; s see. And Barbara Bo-- they were good friends. They, --because of them and their connection to my dad, and they knew my dad, loved my dad, loved his food, they loved me. So, when I hit the campus of La Marque High School, they were there. &quot ; We got you. Let us know if anybody mess with you. But we got friends and they&#039 ; re going to be your friends too, okay?&quot ; MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: So, I, I, I long to see them sometime, that&#039 ; s why I say I&#039 ; ve got to go back to some of the La Marque High School reunions. So, I hope and pray I get to see some of those kids. Especially, the, --I can&#039 ; t remember her name, whose car I used to drive, but she had the cutest blonde flip hair. And she just had perfect teeth. And I thought, how, you&#039 ; re just too cute. Yes, I&#039 ; ll drive your car. MAYFIELD: (laughs) Well, you know, I was going to ask you, when you attended La Marque High School, where --how many other kids attended with you from Lincoln High School? Was this the first year that, um-- BOWIE: This was the first year of integration. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. What year was that? BOWIE: Okay. Uh, let&#039 ; s see. Now you&#039 ; re making me flip. MAYFIELD: I think it was like sixty-six, sixty-seven? BOWIE: Uh, La Marque High School, nineteen sixty-- 1965 is when I went to La Marque High. MAYFIELD: Okay, in 1965. BOWIE: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Did you want to go to La Marque High School? BOWIE: Oh, absolutely. MAYFIELD: Did you want to stay at Lincoln? BOWIE: I wanted to get the heck out of Lincoln because there was one teacher that didn&#039 ; t like me and I, I needed separation. And again, I wanted to be close to my friends that I grew up with from the Lake Road days. And they were all forced to go. They were-- MAYFIELD: Okay. BOWIE: --forced to go, because of the physicality to the school. Those of us on the other side of 1765, there was a busload of us. So, I don&#039 ; t know, maybe forty of us-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, that&#039 ; s a lot of-- BOWIE: --who went over there, but we were in different grades. There were some that were ninth graders. There were some who were tenth graders like myself. BOWIE: And eleventh and twelfth graders. And we became a unit. A unit, being a cohesive group that looked out for each other. MAYFIELD: So, um, because I heard stories that, you know, why do we want to go to La Marque, right? So-- BOWIE: Well, you talk about boycotts. There were boycotts. Some of the parents boycotted Lincoln. And they wanted everybody to go to La Marque High. Uh, I didn&#039 ; t boycott, because I knew I was going, so. MAYFIELD: What were your friends who did? Like, were your friends given a choice, at some, like, at that time. I mean, you, you wanted to go because your friends were there. And then you had friends who had to go because of the district, you know, the way the zoning is. Right? BOWIE: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: But you had friends that were in Lincoln-- BOWIE: Who wanted to go as well as myself. Whose parents wanted them to go to La Marque High. They thought they would receive a better education. They thought there would be greater resources available. And all in all, there were greater resources over there. But we had some great teachers at Lincoln as far teachers, if you compare apples to apples, both sets of teachers were awesome, except for one. MAYFIELD: Did any teachers transfer from Lincoln High School over to La Marque? BOWIE: Eventually, over time. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: They moved principals around, and, and teachers. But it was over time. But the first couple of years, it was, we were being taught by an all-white staff, period. MAYFIELD: Hmm. And did that, like, register with you that it was an all-white staff? BOWIE: Oh, I knew what was happening. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BOWIE: You know, once, once my mother had to talk, leaving Bogatto&#039 ; s, I understood that life will never be the same. That there will always be some people who feel a certain way and for those people, there&#039 ; s nothing you can do without a dialog with them. And some people are not willing to entertain, or sit down and dialog to discuss differences. And for those that, that don&#039 ; t, you, you just, you know, that&#039 ; s out of your control. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. That&#039 ; s true. Well, is there anything else that you would like to make sure to mention in our oral history before we conclude? BOWIE: No. You asked me if I had some final thoughts and I pulled together three sayings that are monumental for me. And so I would like to share them. MAYFIELD: Sure. BOWIE: Oh, I&#039 ; ve unplugged myself. Okay. Good. When I think I can&#039 ; t handle something, or do something, I think about the things that I have done in spite of setbacks. Number two: you won&#039 ; t be distracted if you&#039 ; re captivated with a purpose. And finally: the things you do for yourself are gone when you&#039 ; re gone. But the things you do for others will remain as your legacy. MAYFIELD: Oh, I really like that. I really like that. Well, Commissioner Bowie -- BOWIE: --And I have enjoyed this opportunity. You made me pull stuff together. Put down dates. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BOWIE: And now I&#039 ; ve got a little something here I&#039 ; m going to put in book-form for my grandson, and pictures, and that will be something he can pass down to his great grandkids. God keeps staying the same. And, and he will be able to let them know that Thelma Smith, she was a little quirky, but she was pretty decent. MAYFIELD: Decent and a tough woman, and uh, energetic, and caring it seems. Every, all of those things. And-- BOWIE: Thank you. MAYFIELD: I just wanted to say, it really was a pleasure for me to interview you and uh, and I&#039 ; m so appreciative of the fact that you&#039 ; re taking part in our oral history project for the African American Experience. BOWIE: It is my pleasure. MAYFIELD: Thank you so much. BOWIE: It&#039 ; s my pleasure. Thank you. MAYFIELD: This concludes our interview with Commissioner Bowie, um, for the Moore Memorial Public Library African American Experience Oral History Project. Thank you so much. BOWIE: Thank you. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, and copyrights, have been transferred to the Moore Memorial Public Library in Texas City. Parties interested in production or commercial use of the this resource should contact the Library Director at Moore Memorial Public Library. video 0 https://ohms.texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/viewer.php?cachefile=2021OH_AAE001.xml 2021OH_AAE001.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Thelma Smith Bowie Description An account of the resource Thelma Smith Bowie, Commissioner-at-Large for Texas City, Texas, describes moving from Temple, Texas to Texas City - La Marque, in 1957, and how living at 122 Lake Road “was the best place to be in the whole wide world”. She shares stories about her sisters, especially Wilma, her sister with down syndrome. She reminisces about spending happy times on her grandparents’ farm during the summer breaks, and her thoughts on the influence that church had on her and the community. Bowie tells of her family’s economic circumstances and how they improve after her mother’s decision to attend college. Bowie talks about her early experiences with racial discrimination from childhood to adulthood. She describes one incident when the superintendent of the school district called her out of the classroom so he could see for himself that a Black child had the highest standardized test scores of all the students from La Marque Independent School District. She shares stories about her choices to attend high school during the time of integration. She voices her admiration for Sara Miller, the PE teacher at La Marque, who recognized her athletic talents and encouraged her in her university vocations. She talks about Ann Simmons and how instrumental she was in convincing Bowie to run for a seat on the school board, which began her journey into politics. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2021OH_AAE001 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-03-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://www.texascitytx.gov/DocumentCenter/View/3386/Copyright_2021_Final">MMPL Copyright Statement</a> https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/565437dad35f64caa24c5155257023e5.jpg 0ffff0c7cb3dc20dc4082d3fdd78a2e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource African American Experience - Texas City Description An account of the resource First hand accounts and stories from the African American community in Texas City, Texas. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Moore Memorial Public Library Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mayfield, Theresa Broussard, Brenda Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Theresa Mayfield Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Reverend D.N. Benford OHMS Object Location of the Magic OHMS Link for OHMS Viewer https://ohms.texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/viewer.php?cachefile=2020OH_AAE001.xml OHMS Object Text All the text from the XML (do not make public) 5.4 Interview with Reverend D.N. Benford, September 25, 2020 2020OH_AAE001 04:17:44 OHAAE African American Experience - Texas City Moore Memorial Public Library Oral History Repository Reverend D.N. Benford Theresa Mayfield 2020OH_AAE001 2:|42(6)|67(7)|85(8)|111(10)|142(7)|197(2)|231(10)|258(8)|277(12)|305(5)|326(14)|361(2)|395(10)|419(6)|445(3)|487(12)|511(4)|541(2)|572(3)|607(3)|625(3)|648(5)|680(12)|712(6)|736(6)|758(5)|785(2)|812(13)|836(2)|858(3)|883(2)|910(6)|941(7)|964(7)|984(9)|1008(10)|1034(6)|1072(9)|1098(3)|1124(7)|1156(8)|1176(1)|1202(2)|1233(4)|1258(9)|1288(15)|1324(12)|1363(4)|1388(15)|1412(4)|1433(8)|1463(2)|1485(2)|1508(11)|1533(2)|1591(13)|1650(3)|1696(3)|1743(13)|1776(1)|1805(3)|1838(4)|1879(2)|1919(4)|1949(10)|1983(8)|2016(2)|2050(13)|2078(6)|2124(11)|2171(6)|2210(3)|2244(10)|2267(8)|2303(9)|2335(2)|2354(13)|2373(3)|2392(2)|2417(2)|2436(7)|2463(6)|2503(1)|2546(4)|2566(6)|2595(5)|2618(2)|2637(7)|2659(1)|2679(6)|2707(5)|2739(8)|2786(3)|2813(10)|2840(6)|2867(8)|2901(1)|2920(9)|2944(1)|2983(5)|3010(7)|3038(10)|3059(3)|3082(4)|3102(4)|3123(14)|3147(5)|3179(11)|3207(6)|3226(9)|3258(5)|3276(2)|3301(2)|3326(1)|3366(7)|3389(4)|3426(3)|3469(4)|3498(11)|3521(15)|3564(9)|3584(11)|3609(10)|3626(13)|3652(2)|3672(6)|3699(7)|3711(13) 0 https://youtu.be/IFXcnkJuw8c YouTube video 0 Introduction 57 Early life in a family of sharecroppers Agricultural work ; Choctaw ; Cotton ; Mary Benford ; Rufus Benford ; Seeny Stovall ; Sharecroppers ; Siblings ; W. D. Benford African Americans--Employment ; African Americans--Families ; Cotton picking--Texas 662 Marriage Dorothy Davis ; Julia Benford African Americans--Families 29.386, -94.976 18 Location of the Rising Star Baptist Church. 1526 Education was the best defense against suppression Field work ; Jim Crow African Americans--Education--Texas ; Civil rights 1653 Primary school Football ; Uniforms African Americans--Education--Texas ; African Americans--Segregation 1811 Seminary and college educational journey Conroe Normal and Industrial College ; Seminary ; Theology African Americans--Education (Higher) ; African Americans--Religion ; BCU's (Historically Black Colleges and Universities) 1969 Teaching at the seminary and the emphasis on learning proper English Christian Doctrine ; English ; Grammar ; Speech ; Teaching ; Theology African Americans--Education--Texas 2292 Preaching at age fourteen while simultaneously finishing high school and attending seminary Christian Doctrine ; Preaching ; Seminary ; Sermons ; Theology African Americans--Education--Texas ; African Americans--Religion 2635 Moving from seminary studies to college and earning advanced degrees Bachelor of Divinity ; Bachelor of Theology African Americans--Education (Higher) ; African Americans--Religion 2765 Benford discusses the various churches he first preached at Baptist ; Church ; Conroe Normal and Industrial College ; First Baptist Colored ; Preaching ; Rev. F. M. Johnson ; Rising Star Baptist Church African Americans--Religion 3646 Benford receives a vision to return to Texas City Church ; Conroe Normal and Industrial College ; Cotton ; La Marque ; Preaching ; Texas Bus Line African Americans--Religion 4261 Benford describes the church, parsonage, and the need for repairs American Oil ; Blackburn Lumberyard ; Carbide ; Church ; Congregation ; Conroe Normal and Industrial College ; La Marque ; Leroy Davis ; Monsanto ; Oak Street ; Parsonage ; Rising Star Baptist Church ; Sewage ; Telephone ; Utilities ; William S. Dale African Americans--Religion 4844 Rising Star Church and parsonage burns down Christmas Eve Bostick's Café ; Carbide ; Christmas Eve ; Fire ; Heater ; Jewel Garrett, Sr. ; Oak Street ; Parsonage ; Rising Star Baptist Church ; William S. Dale African Americans--Religion 5775 The trials of rebuilding the Rising Star Church Bell Zion Church ; Cid's Ranch ; Clergy ; Construction ; Contractor ; Financing ; Fire ; Fraud ; Injury ; Insurance ; Mainland Funeral Home ; Miss Hanson ; Reuben Polk ; Revival ; Rodeo African Americans--Texas--Religion 6801 The community around the Rising Star Church Church ; Howard Settlement ; La Marque ; Oak Street ; Parsonage ; Rural ; West Texas City ; Zoning African American neighborhoods 7092 Racial and economic make-up of the community and keeping residents on the right path Dewald Rankin ; Jeffery Dale ; Justice of the Peace ; Police Chiefs African American neighborhoods--Economic aspects 7339 Getting basic utilities into the community Sanitation ; Sewage ; Utilities African American neighborhoods 7462 The community becomes West Texas City through annexation Annexation ; La Marque ; West Texas City African American neighborhoods 7624 Neighborhood safety Church African American neighborhoods 7668 1947 Texas City Disaster and hurricanes Sixth Street Hurricane Carla, 1961 ; Texas City (Tex )--Explosion, 1947 7732 Healthcare John Sealy Hospital African Americans--Hospital care 7865 Transportation Buick ; Busses ; Cotton ; East Texas City ; EMS ; First Baptist Colored Church ; General Motors ; Horse and buggy ; John Sealy Hospital ; Pontiac ; Preachers ; Rev. F. M. Johnson ; Rural ; Texas Bus Lines African American neighborhoods 8279 Newspapers, radios and the first television KGBC ; Television ; The Chronicle ; The Daily Sun ; The Galveston News ; The Post ; Zenith Newspapers 8466 Trading and shopping Blackmond's Lumberyard ; Bogatto's ; Sull's Drugstore ; Tharp's Lumberyard 8697 Meal time: hunting, fishing, and the favorite foods for a country boy Hogshead cheese ; Hunting ; Seafood ; Soul food African Americans--Families ; African Americans--Food 9091 Being a community leader, civil rights, Johnnie Henderson, the labor union, and community college AFL-CIO ; Clergy ; College of the Mainland ; Community ; Emmett Lowry ; Jack Brooks ; Johnnie Henderson ; Voting African Americans--Civil rights--Texas ; African Americans--Education (Higher) ; African Americans--Employment ; African Americans--Political activity ; African Americans--Religion ; Labor unions ; Martin Luther King, Jr. 9586 Voting, the poll tax, and spreading the word about candidates Black Ministers Alliance ; Poll tax ; Voting African Americans--Civil rights--Texas ; African Americans--Political activity ; Labor Rights 10250 Bringing Head Start to Galveston County CAC ; Central Day Care ; Civil Rights Act ; Community Action Council ; Day care ; Federal Grant ; Kempners ; La Marque High School ; Lincoln High School ; Mary Crowder ; Nora Thompson ; Professor Calhoun ; Rising Star Baptist Church ; Ruth Shannon Hicks ; The Right's of the Poor Head Start programs 11166 Important black national figures during the Civil Rights Movement Al Sharpton ; Busses ; Coca-Cola Bottling Company ; College of the Mainland ; Jesse Jackson Civil rights ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 11438 Being African American in Texas City during segregation and integration Andrews Street ; Black Ministers Union ; Bob Baxter ; Booker T. Washington School ; Dr. Green ; Dr. Tinney ; Drug Stores ; Iva Turner ; James Daniels ; Johnnie Henderson ; La Marque Colored School ; La Marque High School ; Lake Road ; Marie Moore ; Mascots ; Norm Bulaich ; P. S. Simms ; Prairie View A&amp ; M College ; Presbyterian Church ; Ralph Allen ; Rosa Jones ; T. J. Jackson ; Texas City High School ; Theaters African Americans--Education--Texas ; African Americans--Religion ; African Americans--Segregation ; Race discrimination--Texas ; School integration 13532 Martin Luther King's death Civil rights ; Jesse Jackson ; Silver rights King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 13971 Children and the family's role in the church Arla Rochell ; Coca-Cola Bottling Company ; D. N. Benford, Jr. ; Football ; Harvard University ; Juletta Wright ; La marque High School ; Michelle Benford ; Rice University ; The Houston Post ; Thomas Nathaniel Benford ; Toni Benford ; Yolanda Benford African Americans--Families ; African Americans--Marriage ; African Americans--Religion 15169 Final thoughts Constitution of the United States ; Discrimination ; Jim Crowism ; Rights of the Poor African Americans--Economic conditions ; African Americans--Segregation ; African Americans--Social conditions 15436 Conclusion Reverend D.N. Benford shares insight into his 75 years of experience as a preacher for the Rising Star Baptist Church. He talks about his family and what it was like for them as sharecroppers in Bremond, Texas. Benford details his educational journey to becoming an ordained minister and acquiring his Rising Star fellowship. Benford describes the neglected state of Rising Star Baptist Church as he first saw it and his efforts to improve it. He talks about the night the parsonage and church caught fire, the tribulations from the church members surrounding the contractor, Rueben Polk, to rebuild, and the struggle to find a temporary place for the congregation. Benford tells about the community, and how many people moved there for employment opportunities. He talks about the annexation of La Marque into Texas City and the community’s reaction. Benford talks about different stores and shopping venues such as Bogatto’s and the various lumberyards that opened due to the housing development. Benford talks about his children and two marriages ; first to Dorothy Davis and then to Juletta Wright, a marriage that lasted almost 62 years. He describes his experience writing and winning a grant, with the help of Mary Crowder and Ruth Shannon Hicks to help open the first Head Start Daycare Center on the Mainland. He talks about the vote, the poll tax, and the role that Black ministers played in providing information to the community about political candidates. Benford talks about his involvement in the civil rights movement. He discusses the integration of schools and how it was important to select a neutral name for their new mascot. Benford tells the story about an African American student who was expelled and how it was necessary to hire a lawyer to protect her rights. He discusses the death of Martin Luther King, Jr. and the effect it had on him personally and on the community. MAYFIELD: My name is Theresa Mayfield, and I am the local history librarian from Moore Memorial Public Library in Texas City, Texas. We are conducting an interview for our oral history project entitled The African American Experience Texas City. Today we are talking to Reverend D. N. Benford of the Rising Star Baptist Church to learn more about him, and to discuss events that took place between the years 1950 and 1970. However, due to Covid-19 restraints, we are conducting and recording this interview over the telephone. I am currently in the meeting room at Moore Memorial Public Library in Texas City, Texas and Reverend Benford will be speaking from the Rising Star Baptist Church in Texas City. Today is Friday, September 25, 2020.  Thank you Reverend Benford for taking part in our African American Experience - Texas City, Oral History Project.  BENFORD: Thank you. MAYFIELD: So Reverend Benford, when and where were you born? BENFORD: I was born in Kemp Texas, K-e-m-p, Kemp Texas, and that&#039 ; s in Kaufman County. BENFORD: K-a-u-f, Kaufman. MAYFIELD: Okay, and what year were you born? BENFORD: On March 12, 1930. MAYFIELD: What are the names of your parents? BENFORD: My mother&#039 ; s name is Mary Benford. My grandmother&#039 ; s mother&#039 ; s name was Seeny Stonewall. MAYFIELD: Your grandmother&#039 ; s name was Seeny? BENFORD: Seeny Stovall MAYFIELD: Can you spell the last name? BENFORD: S-t-o-v-a-l-l, Stovall MAYFIELD: Ok. Where was your family originally from? BENFORD: We were from--, Bremond, Texas. MAYFIELD: Bremond Texas? BENFORD: Yeah, Bremond, Texas. MAYFIELD: Ok. What do you know about your family background? BENFORD: My grandmother was a Choctaw Indian and she was a little short lady with bowed legs (laughs). She had hair down to her knees. And I really don&#039 ; t know much about how she got over into the Black culture, maybe she had a Black husband, and all. And of course, until he passed away. But she did, at one time, own a thirty-acre farm in Bremond. And this was all back in the twenties I suppose. And of course, when the Panic came, the Depression, everybody was hard pressed, you know, for living and she ultimately lost that place because of taxes and things.  In the meantime, sharecropping was a big deal with Blacks and a lot of some of the big white farms and negroes moved on these farms, and they would give them forty acres of land to work. And they would do it on shares-- like three shares, some were four. And those shares mean that every fourth one you got or every third one you got it, and the other ones went to the owner. Cotton, if you got three bales of cotton every third bale would be yours. If you were in on fourths, quarters, every fourth bale would be yours. And that was a way of life for many, many, many, many Black folk who understood that agriculture world good and helps that kind of work. And we had to resort to that. It seems that at one time we might have lived pretty good, but at the Depression, there was no money and Blacks were at the bottom of the totem pole when it came to finance. The only work that Blacks had to do was what white --of what white people allowed them to do. And because that was generally, you know, in the fieldwork, clean-up work, and things like that. We lived off of what they called a meager fare (laughs). And that&#039 ; s scraping the bottom of the barrel, you know, to make it. And of course, there were a lot of displaced people, white and Black. And of course, we worked for, we worked as sharecroppers. And as a sharecropper, the owner had one great, one huge store. He would carry everything that ever a family would need. And of course, the people who worked the sharecroppers were allowed credit. And they would pay us like it. If my family got something, they would write it down. And you could get anything you wanted, all on credit. And after you had summarized your harvest for the year, they would take out the expenses and whatever was left would be yours. Oh, and of course, the big trick of this was that the sharecroppers could never, you know, get above what they&#039 ; d spent. It took all the expense and what we would spend between this year and next year&#039 ; s settling time, generally overrode what we made as they saw it. And you know you could never have anything of your own. You always be a little bit in debt each year. And of course, that was the gimmick of that and stuff like that. And everybody that was a sharecropper, they worked hard to try to earn enough to pay off what they consumed already and have some money left. And that just wasn&#039 ; t going to be. Because even though sometimes we kept records ourselves of what we got, their books never would agree with ours. Not their books. And uh, -- it was always stress on the sharecropper. And because the only relief we got was like it got in the fall of the year, sometimes they would leave cotton in the field, and we could go out and do what they called scrap cotton. And sometimes in scrapping cotton, you could almost, --a family could get a bale of cotton, just scrapping cotton. And of course, they&#039 ; d let you have that for Christmas. MAYFIELD: Did they do that on purpose? Like that. BENFORD: Yeah, yeah, they would do that. They would do that. You, --we wouldn&#039 ; t make any money for the year&#039 ; s work, but they would leave some in the field for you to scrap so you could have a nice Christmas. You had to go back in the fields, and it would be a lot of cotton sometime left in the fields. And they did it on purpose, so you could make some money for yourself and your family. Whatever, --whatever amount of cotton you got, a bale, or less than a bale, you had that money to spend for yourself. MAYFIELD: Did you have any siblings growing up? BENFORD: Yeah, I had two brothers. I had two brothers. I&#039 ; m the middle boy. I had an older brother and I had big ol&#039 ; baby brother. MAYFIELD: What were their names?  BENFORD: My oldest brother was named, W. D. Benford. And my youngest brother was named Rufus, R-u-f-u-s Benford. And my name is Doris Nathaniel Benford. MAYFIELD: Doris Nathaniel Benford, okay. BENFORD: Seems like they got my initials D and N Benford. But we were very, very small, in those days, and there was little, there was little we could do in the fields. We could go in the fields and help our parents fill the cotton sacks. I&#039 ; d just take a small sack and go out and get cotton and bring it back to them and all that. Then of course, when, as you grew larger, they would make you a small sack for your age and you would go out and you could pull your own sack. The sack went across your shoulder, and you pulled it. You drug it. And of course, the older you got, the larger your sack would get and all that. And so, we had little cotton sacks of our own and we would go out and pick cotton and bring it back and put it in our mother&#039 ; s sack and our grandmother&#039 ; s sack. And when they would go to weigh the cotton up, well, it was weighed with that, along with that. MAYFIELD: Are your brothers still alive? BENFORD: Both my brothers passed away. My youngest brother died first. And my oldest brother died two years ago. They passed away. My oldest brother was ninety-two and my youngest brother was, -- if he had been living, he would have been eighty-eight. Oh, I&#039 ; m ninety. We&#039 ; re all two years apart. MAYFIELD: What other relatives did you live with, other than your mother. BENFORD: Okay, I lived with, uh, I had, my, there was three in my mother&#039 ; s family. There was two girls and one boy. And of course, an uncle, we called him Uncle Jesse. And I had one aunty, her name was Annie Lee. There were three of them. And then my grandmother and we all kind of lived together at first.  MAYFIELD: And you said your grandmother had long hair. Can you-- BENFORD: Yeah, my grandmother&#039 ; s hair was down to her knees. MAYFIELD: --what was your grandmother&#039 ; s ethnicity? BENFORD: She married a colored. She was Choctaw Indian. MAYFIELD: Choctaw? BENFORD: Yeah, Choctaw Indian. That&#039 ; s right. MAYFIELD: Okay. BENFORD: And now, she had, she had [very color?] and she was bow legged. It was kind of funny to think about it. My mother was just like her, and she was bow legged like those Indians are and she had hair down to her knees. MAYFIELD: Oh, ok. So, let&#039 ; s talk a little bit about your current family. Were you married? BENFORD: Yes. Um, I married in 1952.  MAYFIELD: Ok, and what was the name of your wife? BENFORD: My first wife was named Dorothy. Her name was Dorothy Davis. I married before I came to Texas City. I came to Texas City ; I came in 1950. MAYFIELD: You came to Texas City in 1950? BENFORD: Yes, I came here to pastor this church in 1950. MAYFIELD: And so, was Doris with you in 1950? BENFORD: No, I married here. She was a local girl. MAYFIELD: Oh, okay. BENFORD: And it was Dorothy. MAYFIELD: Oh, Dorothy. BENFORD: Dorothy Davis. MAYFIELD: Dorothy Davis, okay. BENFORD: Yeah, when I came here, I was single. MAYFIELD: Ok BENFORD: And that was most unusual because the church didn&#039 ; t call single men. But I was called here. MAYFIELD: But you were called here? BENFORD: I was twenty years old, and I was single. MAYFIELD: How long were you married to Dorothy? BENFORD: We were married five years. MAYFIELD: And did she pass away, or-- BENFORD: No, we separated. MAYFIELD: Okay. BENFORD: We separated. MAYFIELD: Okay. And how did you meet your current wife? BENFORD: I was, uh, I came in 1950 as the pastor and this church was a real good church for, you know, for the Black community. And it was well-known. And these people here were, they were go-getters and all. So, the church was real nice and I was invited to a lot of places to preach. I would preach all down in Brazoria, Angleton, and places like that. And um, Wharton, and my first wife, my second wife, rather, she&#039 ; s live in Angleton, Texas, and she was a girl piano player. She was a musician. And of course, that was very, very necessary in our community. So, she played for churches, her dad was principal of this school in Angleton. As a matter of fact, I think they named the school after him after he passed away, T. J. Wright, Sr. And I went to, --I used to go to a church called Bethel Church in Angleton and I used to preach. And she would come, and she would play for the church and for the community. That&#039 ; s when I saw her, but I didn&#039 ; t say anything. I just saw her and all that. Then later on, I did quite a bit of preaching at revivals and things like that and I would see her occasionally. And she played for churches and all and she was a high school girl. And later on, when she finished school, and she went to a college called Bishop College in Marshall, Texas. And of course, I did quite a bit of traveling: conventions, associations, and things like that. I didn&#039 ; t see her for maybe three or four years, maybe longer. And of course, one day I was in Houston at what we call an Association, that&#039 ; s a gathering of churches, for an annual meeting. And we were in the Fifth Ward, and I think they called them the Wright Cuney Apartments or something like that. MAYFIELD: Likenly Apartments? BENFORD: Hmm? Yeah, the Wright, I think they called them, the Wright Cuney Apartments. It was a great big apartment complex. And I was in the, I was in the complex for a luncheon and somehow or another (laughs) they had to borrow some chairs from one of their neighbors in the apartment complex. And I went to help bring the chairs back. And so, when I went there, well, they was doing kind of like a Christmas holiday, and she was home from college, and she was there visiting one of her classmates. And of course, I saw her, and I recognized her, and she recognized me, and we just spoke. And she told me where she was going to school. And of course, I didn&#039 ; t see her any more for a long time. She still lived in Angleton. That was her home. Her daddy was principal of a school in Angleton. It was called Marshall High School. MAYFIELD: What year was this? BENFORD: Boy, it had to be in the early fifties. It had to be in the early fifties because we got married in fifty- seven, December twelfth, fifty-seven. And so then, this had to be in kind of like in, fifty-two, fifty-three, fifty-four. Because I stayed married to my first wife for five years, and then I was single. I had two children with my first wife. And so, I kept up with them, and took care of them. (Engine sound). And, ah so one day an old lady in Angleton, she was like a mother for the whole community. Well, everybody called her Aunty Lily. And she was everybody&#039 ; s, everybody looked upon her as a paternal mother. And she was very, very kind and she loved preachers. And she knew me real well. And I heard that she, that she had cancer. And everybody was hurt because she was a member of our district association. And all of the pastors had kind of come up under her and so they told me she was ill and I wanted to go see her. So, one day I chose, --I left La Marque, and I went to see her. And she was getting feeble and all. And we talked. And she was very, very happy that I had come to see her. And uh, and of course we kind of said, like, our farewells. And I tried to give her an offering just to aid her because she was, she had always been maybe, like a house worker. And of course, there was no kind of income for people like that. And I knew she had to live, and so I tried to give her some money just to make life comfortable for her. And she would not let me give it to her. She told me she was going to give me some money. (Mayfield laughs). Because she wanted me to be successful as a pastor. And that really, really, -- it just (laughs), it kind of untied my moral system. But when I saw that she was so sincere and she was going to be hurt if I didn&#039 ; t take it, I accepted it as an act of kindness because she wanted to do this for me. And so, she had some money in a tobacco sack. Back in those days they used to roll their own cigarettes, Bull Durham and all that. And she had a tobacco sack, and she had her money in the sack. And so, she went in there, took out some dollars. And so, I was going to pray with her, and she said, &quot ; No, I&#039 ; m going to pray for you.&quot ; And I understood her being a seasoned Christian and all that, so I let her pray for me. And instead of me praying for her like a pastor would normally do. And so, we did all that. I didn&#039 ; t want to leave her with any unhappiness. And when I got ready to leave, she remembered that (laughs) the girl that I later married was in town. She taught school in Bay City. And so, she told me she was in town, and she begged me to please just go by and speak to her. She hadn&#039 ; t seen me in several years. And so, the house that she lived in was about maybe a half of a block from where Aunt Lily lived. And it was kind of a-- MAYFIELD: Where who lived? BENFORD: This old lady that I went to see. BENFORD: Lily MAYFIELD: Lily, okay. BENFORD: Yeah, her name was Lily Williams, but everybody called her Aunt Lily. Aunt Lily. And uh, and plus my wife had always worked for her as a girl. And of course, some of the people that she used to work for when she got older, my wife worked for those people. And so, she was kind of a household ---------(?)(?). And Aunty Lily didn&#039 ; t have any children. As a matter of fact, she was a loner with nobody with her and all that. But she wanted me to go by just speak to Julia, --my wife&#039 ; s name was Julia. And I promised her that I would, (laughs) but I really didn&#039 ; t mean to do that because I didn&#039 ; t know the family. And that everybody knew me, but I didn&#039 ; t know them. And of course, I just didn&#039 ; t want to get involved in nothing like that. And so, when I left her house, she couldn&#039 ; t see me and so I went straight by the house that Julia lived in. And --but I didn&#039 ; t stop. I just turned left and came back to the main road to get back to Texas City. And so, (laughs) after I pulled, after I go on about maybe a half of a block, I looked down the road and I saw three people. And I knew it was her. She was tall. And uh, &quot ; Is that Julia there&quot ; ? And she was on her way to town. And of course, back in those days, you walked. And the roads were dusty. They wasn&#039 ; t paved, nothing like that, blacktop. So, I slowed down. I didn&#039 ; t want to put no dust on them. So, I slowed my car down real low, low speed so it wouldn&#039 ; t put dust on them when I went by them. But by me slowing down, uh, and driving slow, that gave them a chance to look at me and recognize me. And of course, when she looked and saw me, she recognized me too. So, I just kind of came to a grinding halt. And she came over and she spoke. And we had a little chat. She told me where she teach. Where she was working. And she was walking with two of her cousins from New York. And of course, they were down visiting the family. And so, I just got her phone number. As a look. I didn&#039 ; t want to hold her up or nothing like that. And so, I got her phone number, and I promised I was going to call her. And I did call her that night. And we had a chance to talk and see what was going on. MAYFIELD: So, you gave her a call? BENFORD: Yeah, I gave her a call that night because I hadn&#039 ; t seen her in maybe three or four years. And she gave me a little history of herself. She had finished Bishop College. And she was working in Bay City, Texas as a schoolteacher and all. And she was single and all that. And uh so, then we start talking. And I explained to her that I had had a marriage and that it had kind of fallen through the cracks. And that I was single. And of course, back in those days, people tried their very best to always, always match a preacher with a musician so she could help out with church work. But that wasn&#039 ; t, that wasn&#039 ; t our situation. We just met and we started talking. MAYFIELD: Okay. And what year did you get married? BENFORD: I got married December 12, 1957. MAYFIELD: Nineteen fifty-seven? BENFORD: Yes, ma&#039 ; am. MAYFIELD: Alright, well, I&#039 ; m actually going to go back a little bit, if it&#039 ; s, okay?  BENFORD: Okay. MAYFIELD: So, you were in Texas City in 1950 and you were the preacher, but can you tell me how and what years you became involved in the church? BENFORD: Well, I became involved in the church in the year of 1950. In the same year. I was a boy preacher. I started preaching when I was fourteen years old. And I guess I must have been kind of brilliant and all that kind of stuff. And I started preaching in Vernon, Texas, December 25th, 1944. And then, the next year, I moved to Beaumont with my pastor. And then they ordained me for a church at the age of fifteen, which is unheard of. And I had to be ordained like any other preacher. And they called me to the West Beulah Baptist Church in Beaumont. MAYFIELD: What year was this? BENFORD: Uh, in 1950--, let me see, let me see, 1950, no, no. That was 1945. MAYFIELD: Okay. BENFORD: I started preaching at fourteen in &#039 ; 44. And then in &#039 ; 45, when I was fifteen, they called me to pastor a church in Beaumont, Texas.  MAYFIELD: And so, you started your profession when you were fourteen? BENFORD: Yes, ma&#039 ; am. I preached my first sermon, December 25th, Christmas Day in 1944. MAYFIELD: But what was your influence? Was there a certain person who influenced you? BENFORD: Yeah, I was called to preach. God called me to preach. I was called to preach by God.  MAYFIELD: And so, there was no person that you, um-- BENFORD: No, no, no, no, no. MAYFIELD: Okay. BENFORD: I was just a, you know, a little teenager. Um, cutting up and carrying on, and things like that, and having a good time. And for the manner of the age that we lived in, and because the war was going on and all that kind of stuff, you know. I belonged to a real good Black Baptist church. Because we had limitations, you know, of what they could do. They did all they could to advance us and give us a sense of citizenship and things like that. And there were limitations on what Blacks could do. There were no civil rights. And of course, we all pat ourselves and make a living under the Jim Crow system in America. And most of us understood that. But my parents were unusual parents, and they didn&#039 ; t accept Jim Crow. And they kept telling all, everybody in my family, at the bottom way it was coming to the top. And even though we were suppressed and stuff like that, that someday was going to be better. And our best defense was a good education. And my mother visioned, and I don&#039 ; t know how she did it. But she envisioned us. My grandmother did too. So, you must get an education. Because it&#039 ; s not going to be like this always. They foresaw that the time would come when Blacks would gain freedom and opportunity that they didn&#039 ; t have. And so, they wouldn&#039 ; t let us join the workforce of negroes. They always kind of kept us out of that. And uh, most Black homes with Black children were good as farmhands and field work. And they let us work in the field for a while. But when school started, we couldn&#039 ; t go to the fields. We had to go to school. And of course, sometimes, there&#039 ; d just be three or four kids in school. And the rest of them would, you know, they working till the crops were out. But we couldn&#039 ; t do that.  MAYFIELD: What did your school look like? BENFORD: It was a typical Black school. It was brick. And it was, --it had a few things in it. It had a stage for performances. And they did have a cafeteria, but they never used it and all. And then classrooms and restrooms. And in West Texas, it&#039 ; s very, very cold. And so, we used what they call steam heat. The stove is kind of like a radiator and it would have water in it and it would, it would generate heat. And it wasn&#039 ; t no--. (Laughs) It was just a typical Black school. And of course, we got used stuff, we never got new books. We always got the books that the white kids used. And then they would give them to us. And uh, sometimes, four or five kids had the book before you got it, because they had a little slot in there for you to sign your name when you got it. And of course, everything we got was what they&#039 ; d used the year before. We, --when it came to sports and all, uh we didn&#039 ; t get football ----------(?(?). They just took all the football toys the white boys had used the year before. They put them in a big truck, and they&#039 ; d bring them and dump them in front of the school. And you had to go and find you some shoes and whatever you needed. And you had to get your own jersey and stuff like that. We got what was left over and all. And um-- MAYFIELD: Did you play sports when you were in school? BENFORD: On a minor scale, I didn&#039 ; t get too far. I did, --I was on a football team. But the same year that I--. I think, like I played one year. But I wasn&#039 ; t a starter because I was thirteen. When I was fourteen, I got to play, do more playing, but the same time, that&#039 ; s the year I answered my call to preach. And so, when I did that, then I left learning. So, I never got a chance to really, --and I like basketball, but football was really my sport and all. But I was small, and those guys were huge back in them days. My big job was to stay out of their way. MAYFIELD: So back here in Texas City, so in 1950, you came to Texas City. Ah, where did you live? BENFORD: Actually, when I started preaching, I came to Conroe, Texas. And there was a seminary school where they trained preachers. MAYFIELD: And what was its name? BENFORD: Conroe Normal Industrial College. MAYFIELD: Okay. BENFORD: They taught theology, that&#039 ; s a science where God&#039 ; s reign is universe. And they also taught trades. But the seminary was the main part of the school. MAYFIELD: Okay. So, that&#039 ; s where you learned more theology and sort of the-- BENFORD: --that&#039 ; s all I said. I had to complete my high school work and study theology. MAYFIELD: Okay. So, you did both at the same time-- BENFORD: --when I first went there, I took sixteen hours a day. I had to complete my high school work. They let me come. And because they had a high school department there too. And I uh, so, I did them both. I don&#039 ; t know how I did it, but I carried sixteen hours a day for a couple of years until I finished high school.  MAYFIELD: So, it took two years to finish high school then? BENFORD: Well, yeah. They&#039 ; d uh, I was pretty smart in the books, and they advanced me, and advanced me, and they let me travel to my place. So, in two years, I was able to complete my high school work.  MAYFIELD: So, you finish the seminary. What year did you finish seminary? BENFORD: I finished seminary in nineteen and fifty, no, no, let&#039 ; s see, nineteen and forty--nine. MAYFIELD: Nineteen forty-nine. And then where did you go after seminary? BENFORD: I didn&#039 ; t go anywhere else. The seminary I attended was kind of, it was an unusual seminary. And they had the same curriculum that they had in Moody Institute in Chicago. The man, the president of that college, Conroe College, he was an African and they were very, very brilliant people. And so he brought the same curriculum from Chicago University there to Conroe and that&#039 ; s what he taught us, as Blacks. MAYFIELD: Okay. BENFORD: And of course, uh they had a breakdown when you first went the first two years, they&#039 ; d get you ready for the heavy stuff. And uh, and they took, --they didn&#039 ; t turn any students down. Uh, they accepted me in, and I didn&#039 ; t finish high school and stuff like that. And they would take the boys and girls who, able, and they would let them bring them up to the standards. So, they could get to the seminary work, the main work. And by then, and I&#039 ; m not trying to brag, but I was real smart. And I caught on there real quick. And I became an instructor for ministers who had not completed fifth grade, sixth grade or a thing like that. And my job was to get them ready for seminary work and give them the basics. And of course, there was strong emphasis upon English. You know, speaking and the proper use of English and all that. And because at the time, English was not a need for Black folk. I mean, very few Black folk had jobs where they would even watch their English, so to speak. You could just say anything, this, that and the other. It just didn&#039 ; t matter. But as a preacher, they made us understand that we had to use the very best of English. And the whole school was geared upon the improvement of spoken English by preachers. And they had some systems that they used to make us conscious of the fact that we couldn&#039 ; t split verbs and stuff like that. We had to put the verbs in the proper place and things like that. And so then, they had a program and if you were to say the wrong word or use a verb in the wrong place, people would scream and fall out, like they were dying. And that problem was you just killed a verb ; you just split a verb.  MAYFIELD: (laughs) BENFORD: And that made us more conscious of how we talked. And that did a whole lot to improve everybody&#039 ; s speech. MAYFIELD: How long did you teach? BENFORD: I worked there about, maybe, four years, or a little more as an instructor. My job was to work with the men who had not finished high school. And to get them where they could read and understand what they were reading. And to give them the basics of theology. And of course, that included Christian doctrine, what we believe in our faith, and it also included general bible knowledge. And I had done Sunday school all my life, so I was familiar with the Bible and things like that. But naturally, doing this, I had to be razor sharp and give the boys the basics of the Bible stories and parables, and things like that. And it was real, real, it was very, very helpful to me and to them -- MAYFIELD: --what was the sort of most challenging aspect of your job there? BENFORD: My--? It was teaching the boys who couldn&#039 ; t, couldn&#039 ; t read. They couldn&#039 ; t pronounce words, you know. And of course, they could not handle the King&#039 ; s English. They couldn&#039 ; t get their verbs straight in the singular and plural, you know. And getting them to express themselves in a manner that folk wouldn&#039 ; t break out laughing at them when they spoke. It was very delicate. Very, very delicate job because they were older than myself and some of them were maybe a little, you know, they weren&#039 ; t real old, but they would, they were men. And because they had swallowed their pride and let us help men, we, you know, help them. And the big job was to get them not to take it personal. They would split a verb or say, &quot ; I is&quot ;  or something like that. They got the singular mixed up with the plural. See, everybody would scream and holler. And of course, you, if you understand, you know what&#039 ; s wrong with them. Then they would &quot ; What did I do?&quot ; And you&#039 ; d tell them, you said thus and so. &quot ; What should you have said?&quot ; Then they&#039 ; d catch on. It would take them about two or three months to catch on to that stuff. And you wasn&#039 ; t going to say the wrong thing because you didn&#039 ; t want nobody screaming and hollering. And girls and boys would do it, no matter where you were. MAYFIELD: Scream and holler if you split verbs? BENFORD: Yes, ma&#039 ; am, they&#039 ; d scream. MAYFIELD: So, uh men and women went to the same school. Correct? BENFORD: Everybody went to school there accepted that as a means whereby they could police themselves and get themselves in a state, that they could speak, you know, without fear or nothing like that. And nobody could reject, you know, their speech and all. And I&#039 ; m a double swear witness that that stuff will make you straighten up. (Mayfield laughs) Because when they scream and hollering and then they just act like you shot them in the heart and all that. And when they get through, you just wondering, &quot ; what did I do, what did I do.&quot ; And they say, &quot ; You said, thus and so, and that ain&#039 ; t what you should have said.&quot ; &quot ; You should have said, you know, we are, not we is.&quot ;   MAYFIELD: Ah, I see. BENFORD: And of course, back in those days, that kind of talk was common talk. And you learned real quick that, if I&#039 ; m going to talk, I have to keep these things in line.  MAYFIELD: So, in 1944, you&#039 ; re teaching, so, how did you start transitioning over to preaching then? What prompted you to leave the school? BENFORD: Over to when I-- When I first started ministering?  MAYFIELD: Yeah. What prompted you to leave the school to start ministering? BENFORD: Oh yeah. You see, when I preached my first sermon, I was just fourteen years old. MAYFIELD: Right. BENFORD: That was just one school. I went to Booker T. Washington School in Vernon. And me and my, two of my older brothers and myself, we were honor students. And of course, so it was easy for me to learn. I guess it was just a gift. In the meantime, --when I started my preaching, I didn&#039 ; t really even know about preaching. But I was, and I really didn&#039 ; t take English serious. I loved math and history and stuff like that. But for some reason, I never did care a lot about English, but I had to get it because if we didn&#039 ; t, they&#039 ; d tan your hide. See, in those days, they had discipline in school. And you did not miss, you know, lessons and you got assignments. And they had you on a growth plan. And you had to do it. Your mom wasn&#039 ; t going to say a word if the teacher tanned your hide. In those days, they did this because they recognized as a race, you were behind in some things. And they were very, very, very heavy on us about being good students and the proper use of English, enunciation of words, and you know, when to lower your voice, and when too, you know, stuff like that. Those were just normal things they threw in, as an entree, whether you were going to preach or not. MAYFIELD: So, you&#039 ; re teaching at the seminary. What was your next step? BENFORD: Okay, I stayed there. Then I also, --but I also had to take major courses in like doctrines. And there are Bible doctrines that Baptists believe, and because we had to study the same thing that they studied in Colgate or anywhere else. You see, there was a, a man, a guy named Strong, S-t-r-o-n-g. He had a doctrine called Strong&#039 ; s Systematic Theology. And at that time, he was top man in the world. He was American. And, but now, his book, his book would crack your head. His book would crack your head. So, you had to take three more doctrines before you got to him. So, when you got to Strong&#039 ; s, you could sort of understand what he was saying. So, he was the first book. We had to study the book, Pendleton Doctrine. J.M. Pendleton. That was the beginner&#039 ; s doctrine. And we had to study a book called Church History by H.C. Vedder, V-e-d-d-e-r. And that gave history of the church after Pentecost, and all that. And who did this and who did that, on down to where we are today, in a sense, but in our day. So, yes, there were those books. And I had to get those. And pass those. Then, the next book you had to study was called, a book called Mullen&#039 ; s Doctrine. And Mullen&#039 ; s Doctrine a doctrine by Mullen was Strong&#039 ; s student, so he wrote a doctrine. And his doctrine wasn&#039 ; t nearly as complicated as Strong&#039 ; s Doctrine. His was quite a lot of reading, a lot of reading. And he was good. He was very, very good. His book was big and thick. And so, we had to get that. We had to get that. And of course, when I said doctrine, that was certain subjects, like the Doctrine of God, Attributes of God, and the doctrine of seeing --the Doctrine of Salvation, and all that kind of stuff. And those things, whatever the Bible said about those things, we had to kind of master that. Of course, when you are studying doctrine, there are a lot of practical things that you don&#039 ; t deal with, but later on, when you begin to work among people, you can make it so much plainer to them. MAYFIELD: And so, I studied several doctrines. Finished that. We did a little bit of Connor&#039 ; s Doctrine, but we went to Mullens Doctrine. And then there was another doctrine book called The Great Doctrine of The Bible by William H. Evans. And his doctrine book was a book that had nothing but Bible in it. He didn&#039 ; t do bits and pieces on different things. Whatever the sermon was, he would show that to you in the Bible. Which made it very, very helpful because when you was reading scriptures, you know that this scripture is pointing out adoption or regeneration or whatever you are talking about. And he was mandatory, also. And when you finish Mullens Doctrine, then you was ready for Strong&#039 ; s Doctrine. And of course, it was awesome. Strong&#039 ; s Doctrine was awesome. But he was just saying the same thing, just on a high order and that, but you had to get it. MAYFIELD: So, you&#039 ; re done with seminary, then what happens? BENFORD: Well, in seminary, at that time, opportunities for Blacks in other schools were limited. Now, had I known then what I know now, I would have gone to another school on a high order. Like Harvard or, you know, like Gammon&#039 ; s Seminary in Atlanta called Gammon&#039 ; s Seminary. But now, Harvard and Colgate and schools like that, they were, uh, and Moody Institute in Chicago, they were high power schools. And of course, you had to get this stuff down here and then go there. But see, but Blacks were not welcome to those schools. We just heard about them. And occasionally, we visited, we were allowed to visit their campuses, and things like that. But we were not recruited as students, so there wasn&#039 ; t anything else we&#039 ; d look forward to, but to go to work as a leader, a pastor. And of course, I was considered a prepared preacher. I got a B.Th. degree. That&#039 ; s a Bachelor of Theology. And I&#039 ; ve got a B.D. degree. That&#039 ; s a Bachelor of Divinity. So, those things were, you know (Bang sound), they were, that&#039 ; s what they were. But opportunities for Blacks were not open then like they were now. And they might take, maybe, one of our guys that was real brilliant, and let him work, but they wouldn&#039 ; t, you just couldn&#039 ; t go there because you wanted to. MAYFIELD: So, you-- BENFORD: I didn&#039 ; t try to go any further. MAYFIELD: --so, you wanted to go maybe to a higher, educa-- BENFORD: --Yeah, I wanted to, but I knew that was out of my reach. MAYFIELD: So, you just started to-- BENFORD: It was out of my reach. MAYFIELD: --so, you started pastoring? BENFORD: Hmm hmm, so, I didn&#039 ; t even try to do that. I started looking for work as a pastor. MAYFIELD: What was your first pastor position after the seminary? BENFORD: When I, --actually, before I finished seminary, they called me to a church in Beaumont. I was fifteen years old. I was fifteen years old. And, but I was very, very small. My name was out as one of the more promising young preachers in the country. And so, when my father, in the ministry, they called him to this church, and then he got a call to the church in Houston, Texas. And so, when he left, they said, they told him that they wanted me to be their preacher, but I was just fifteen. And of course, a lot of folk criticizing. Some said &quot ; No&quot ; , you know. But the majority rules, and so they said they wanted me to be their pastor and so, --but I had to be ordained. And to be ordained, you had to kind of really know your lessons. And you had to be, you had to know everything that you needed to know. In regards of, you know, of a seminary graduate. So, there are things called the Eighteen Articles of Faith in the Baptist church. MAYFILED: Eighteen hours of faith, you said? BENFORD: Eighteen Articles of Faith. MAYFIELD: Eighteen Articles of Faith. Okay. BENFORD: It&#039 ; s eighteen things we believe. MAYFIELD: So (Ping sound) how did you end up in Texas City then? BENFORD: Well, that&#039 ; s a long story. I stayed in Beaumont a year. I was fifteen years old. And so, when I was seventeen years of age, they, I passed through here one Sunday afternoon. I was seventeen years old. And I had a friend here, named Pastor F. M. Johnson. He&#039 ; s the pastor of First Baptist Colored in Texas City. And it was shortly after the blast in &#039 ; 47 [Ed. note: 1947 Texas City Disaster]. And I heard he was ill, but I was in, I was in college. I was doing my teaching and studying and all that. And so, I heard he was ill, and I just thought I would come down and give him a hand. He had a bad throat, so when I, -- I caught a ride to Houston, and then they took me over to get the car near the railroad station on Travis. Then I caught a bus down here, and at that time, we jumped in the Texas City Y. There wasn&#039 ; t no bus station here. We jumped in the Texas City Y, so I got off at the Y. I caught a bus to get me back behind the Tin Smelter into the Black neighborhood. When I got there, his morning worship was over, and he was trying to baptize. So, he just asked me, &quot ; So, will you stay and preach for me at three o&#039 ; clock this afternoon? I&#039 ; m supposed to preach at the church I&#039 ; m at right now, Rising Star.&quot ; So, I was just trying to get me some money, so I had some meat. You know, we studied late and night, and we&#039 ; d buy sandwiches and stuff like that from a guy that cooked in the neighborhood. And so I was just hustling a little change for recreation. So, I stayed and preached for him. And I was seventeen years old. I was kind of heavy. I was good. And I could sing, also. I still sing. And so, I preached for him that afternoon and there were a lot of folk here at that time. Folk went to church. So, these people, they were in the same church. They came down and they shook my hand and they had never seen me before. And they just, you know, who I was. And I told them I went to Conroe College. And knew about Conroe College. Everybody in Texas knew about Conroe College. Some of our greatest Black preachers came out of that school. And so, but they told me that evening, they said, &quot ; If we ever get without a pastor, we going to find you.&quot ; Well, that was an insult to me because they had a pastor. And I didn&#039 ; t like it. And so, I mentioned it to Reverend Johnson that he didn&#039 ; t bother. And I said, &quot ; Doc, some of those people told me that if they got without a pastor, they were going to hunt me.&quot ; He&#039 ; s all, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t pay it no mind. That&#039 ; s just, that&#039 ; s the way people are.&quot ; So, I forgot it. I forgot all about it. That was in forty-seven.  I went on back to school and did my, I still got on with my stuff. And I gave the church up in Beaumont because the culture was different. I&#039 ; m a negro. And these people in Beaumont were the French culture. And there&#039 ; s a difference between the French culture and the Black culture. And there&#039 ; s quite a bit of difference. And I didn&#039 ; t really fit them because they were of, they were the French culture. And of course, I was, oh, I was right out of the heart of Texas and we&#039 ; re different. And we have different traits, and stuff like that. And so, I noticed a difference. And I discovered that I really wasn&#039 ; t the man that they needed. So, I gave it up. I gave it up. I went onto school full time. I was coming over on weekends and doing the work. I, so then, while I was, after I gave it up and everything, it was a lot of girls going to Conroe College too. And there was a family going to school there. And they were called the McCanns. And their parents were real, real big-time farmers in Wharton County. And this guy, as a matter of fact, he was a powerful man. He had a lot of property and stuff like that. Then, he was sort of kind of wealthy, and stuff like that. He had two daughters there. And so, he uh, one of them knew me on the campus. And I was pretty popular on the campus. And so, there was a church in Wharton County, a place called Spanish Camp. Now, Spanish Camp is an old Black settlement in Wharton County. And it was quite a place. And there were a whole lot of educated folk in Spanish Camp. They went to Guadalupe College and stuff like that. And they had a doctor and things like that. I mean a registered doctor, and stuff like that. And the church that was there, was kind of on the high-class order. And so, she go and told her grandfather about me. They got another pastor. Their pastor died. And so, she&#039 ; d go and told him that they ought to let me come preach for them.  MAYFIELD: And who is she? BENFORD: Her name was Miriam McCann. Miriam McCann. I didn&#039 ; t know she had done it. But she did it. So, then they wrote me a letter and asked me to come and speak for them. I think it was about the first Sunday in April in 1947. But I&#039 ; m here to tell you, it was some bad weather. Whew, it was cold. It was cold, cold, cold, cold, cold!  MAYFIELD: Cold in Spanish Camp? BENFORD: Yes, Spanish Camp. In Spanish Camp. And back in those days, all they had was wood heaters, and stuff like that, you know. And everything that a family did. Country church. It was a country church, rural church. But it was good for them, and all that kind of good stuff. And so then, I went that Sunday morning at the invitation, and it was so cold that I had to come out of the pulpit and stand by the heater to preach. And just a few folk there. Faithful people. So, they heard me. And then they asked me would I come back on the fourth Sunday. I went there on the second Sunday, and they asked if I would come back on the fourth Sunday. So that more folk could hear me. And I told them, yeah, I&#039 ; d come back. And, so, I did. But the secretary of the church was here that afternoon that I preached at the church I&#039 ; m at right now. He was a carpenter. MAYFIELD: What was his name--? BENFORD: --he was doing some work. He remembered me. He remembered me. MAYFIELD: What was his name? BENFORD: His name was Handy Bryant. Handy, H-a-n-d-y. Bryant, B-r-y-a-n-t. And he looks a petite guy, but he was a great carpenter. Everybody knows him but has also secretary of that church in Spanish Camp, Rising Star Spanish Camp. So then, he told them, &quot ; I heard this young man preach before. He preached in Texas City in Rising Star.&quot ; And this Rising Star in Texas City was named after the church in Spanish Camp. MAYFIELD: Oh, interesting. BENFORD: People down there, come up here and they opened that. So, then that kind of put a little tie to it. And so that fourth Sunday was Easter Sunday. And of course, and then that was when all of the country folk would come out of the woods. Boy. They come out of the woods, and I mean Easter, Easter was a big day for them. And I showed up like I was supposed to. And that Sunday, for some reason, I did not preach, but I taught a lesson on the Atonement. And it was all men. But my teaching and preaching was kind of on the same moral and everything. And it was very, very impressive. And they got even more excited and all that stuff. And so then, they fell in love with me. I was just seventeen years old. They fell in love with me. And of course, they had had some of the greatest preachers in Texas pastor that church. There was a man named H. P. Southern. He was educated in a white school. And he was an unusual Black preacher. And he had been their pastor. They wouldn&#039 ; t call just anybody. You, you kind of had to be a head of it for them to call you. Because they&#039 ; d all finished college, and they didn&#039 ; t want that normal stuff. And so, then Southern had been their pastor and of course they called another man in behind him. And the man that they called, his was named G.H. White. He passed away and all that, but he was also a moderator of the association of the churches and all that. But he heard me. They saw in me, you know, what they wanted to see. And so then, they called me to that church when I was seventeen years old. And of course, they were people that came down and asked them not to do it. They said I was too young ; I was married. But they overlooked all that. They said, &quot ; No, it&#039 ; s our choice and we can call who we want to call, and we see something in him.&quot ; And they called me to pastor that church when I was seventeen years old.  MAYFIELD: So, how long did you pastor at Spanish Camp? BENFORD: I preached there years. I pastored 1947 to 1950. In the meantime, I told you about those folks, these people here would come home to see their kinfolk. So then, when they would come home, they&#039 ; d come for church also. Then they got the chance, they&#039 ; d start hearing me down there in the country, blah, blah, blah. And so then, when that pastor left them here, then they began to, and then that when I offered to preach for them, they told me they was going to find me. It all worked out. They didn&#039 ; t know where I was here, but they knew a man that did know where I was. And so, they asked him, did he know where, how to locate me, and because they got my name, they called me Benson. My name is Ben-ford. So, he knew there something about it, so he told them where I was. And they called my house, and I answered the phone. I answered the phone. And they said, &quot ; Do you know who this is?&quot ; And so, it was coming up to the third Sunday in June, in 1950. And they asked me if I would come and speak for them on Father&#039 ; s Day. I used to do a lot of occasional preaching. So, I just thought they wanted somebody to come and bring them special information about fathers and things like that. And I could do that stuff good. And so, I wasn&#039 ; t even thinking about becoming the pastor of the church. And, but I told my father in the ministry about it and he said, &quot ; No. I don&#039 ; t think they want you to do a special sermon, day sermon. These old folk are looking for a pastor.&quot ; And so now, well I didn&#039 ; t like that at all because I was in love with Spanish Camp. It was my first love. And I mean, I was in love with the Rising Star in Spanish Camp. So, I didn&#039 ; t even let it go in my mind. I came here and I spoke. I spoke from the 46th Psalm, God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in time of trouble. And I thought, all our followers knew about God. And so, that nailed this crowd here. In the meantime, they knew me anyway from that 1947. And, so, then they became concerned about men. They asked me to come back again. Well, I had two churches in Wharton County. So, I came back the next Sunday. And I preached for them. And then they asked me to come back again, and I said, &quot ; No, I can&#039 ; t come back. Listen now, I have church, I&#039 ; m not going to move my church to move in with y&#039 ; all. Now, you heard me. And then, if what you heard don&#039 ; t convince y&#039 ; all but you, that you, that I&#039 ; m for you. Yeah, just get somebody else.&quot ; Because I didn&#039 ; t want to leave Spanish Camp anyway. But they begged me, and begged me, and begged me, and begged me, and begged me, and no, they begged me. And I lied to them. I told them that I would come back just to get them out of my hair. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BENFORD: But I did not plan to come back here and speak for them anymore. So, I lived in Conroe, and I&#039 ; d catch the bus and go to Wharton. They&#039 ; d pick me up. And so I am, I went on back, I went on back to Wharton. And they would always have a great big dinner for me on Saturday evenings. And boy, I ate that big country dinner, and oh, boy. And they had a room for me, and it was kind of high on the prairie like. And there wasn&#039 ; t no air, but you didn&#039 ; t need no air where I stayed at. Oh man, I laid down. As I got, kind of got out of, ---------(?)(?), I didn&#039 ; t unpack my suitcase. I just laid down. So, while I was, while I was laying there, I went into a trance. Vision. And the Lord came to me. And told me to get up and come back to Texas City. He told me that if I didn&#039 ; t come back, somebody would get killed. There was a plot here among these people to reestablish the man that they had already had. And there was a crowd that did not want him. And of course, Lord spoke to me to come. If I didn&#039 ; t come, somebody would get killed. So, I, I didn&#039 ; t hesitate. I just jumped up out of the old bed. I came outdoor and I told Brother Wyatt, that&#039 ; s who I lived with. I said, &quot ; Brother Wyatt I got to go back to Texas City&quot ; . He said, &quot ; I understand, Reverend. And he said, &quot ; We know we can&#039 ; t keep you here.&quot ; He said, &quot ; You&#039 ; re young and you&#039 ; re talented, so you can&#039 ; t stay in the country.&quot ; And so, about the time I told him that, a man turned the corner. He was a cotton broker. A Black man. He had a brand-new Chevrolet truck. Green. And he turned the corner and he saw my suitcase in my hand. So, naturally, in those days, people were very cordial, he stopped. And he said, &quot ; Reverend, you trying to go somewhere?&quot ; He was headed back to Wharton, same town in Wharton was thirteen miles from where I was. I said, &quot ; Yes, I got to go back to Texas City.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll take you ; I&#039 ; m going to Wharton.&quot ; So, he took my suitcase and put it on his truck and got on back to Wharton. And I caught the last bus coming out of the valley, Victoria, and all that, to Houston, to catch the last bus to bring me to Galveston. At that time, they had a bus line called Texas Bus Line. And every two hours, at that time, they were driving to Galveston. Except, Highway 3 was Highway 75 then, the main road to Galveston.  MAYFIELD: Oh, okay. BENFORD: The only road. And there were just cars, cars, cars. Traffic, traffic, traffic. And you could catch a bus every two hours, two buses would leave Houston coming to Galveston. And people leaving Galveston going to Houston. It was a lot of traffic. Anyway, I got on a bus. And I was so tired. I slept through La Marque because it was La Marque then (coughs). And when I came to, I was on Broadway (coughs) at this fifty-second and K. There was a theater called Broadway Theater. And then one block down from it, is a church called Mount Calvary. Mount Calvary is still there. I knew the pastor because he had attended Conroe College when I was a boy. And so, I just pulled the string and got off and I went to his house. And he hadn&#039 ; t seen me in quite a while, but he had heard that I had been preaching up here. And so, went out and saw me and hugged me, you know, and screaming. He said, &quot ; I heard you been preaching in Texas City.&quot ; And the first thing he told me was, he said, &quot ; Please, don&#039 ; t turn them down.&quot ; He knew it was on my mind, I guess. He said, &quot ; Please don&#039 ; t turn them down.&quot ; He said, &quot ; They need you.&quot ; MAYFIELD: What was his name? BENFORD: His name was F. A. Allen. He pastored Mount Calvary Baptist Church fifty-second and K, F. A. Allen. But it was just like a message from God to me, telling me that I had to take this church. And so, they fixed breakfast for me about two-thirty in the morning. And I got up that next morning. I caught the bus in Galveston ; the buses run every two hours. I got up and I caught the right one and it brought me right back to La Marque. And of course, at that time, Rising Star still on Hwy 3, but the bus always stopped right in front of this church. And all I had to do was walk across the road and across the track to the church. And so, I got back in town. I got back here from Galveston. And I walked back across the, I walked across the railroad track. I came on to the church. And of course, when I got here, I could smell something kind of suspicious. The atmosphere was kind of stinky. So, I, it kind of alerted me. And I, I knew where the office was here, in a white framed building. And so, I came on up the stairs and I came in the office. But I could sense something was something wasn&#039 ; t right. MAYFIELD: Some-- BENFORD: So-- MAYFIELD: Something wasn&#039 ; t, something wasn&#039 ; t right in the church? BENFORD: Yeah. There was something going on in the, inside the church membership. There was a plot on to reestablish the man that they had back in the church. You see, he had given it up. And some folk wanted to bring him back. Well, I didn&#039 ; t have anything to do with that. And I really didn&#039 ; t care about that. But I don&#039 ; t know what got into me, but I, like I--I told them. I left the church I loved to come back here and speak for y&#039 ; all today. And I&#039 ; m going to preach here today. I don&#039 ; t care who&#039 ; s going to preach after I get through, but I&#039 ; m going to preach here today. And I don&#039 ; t know why I took that adamant spirit, but that&#039 ; s the spirit I took. And of course, and then later on, because a man came and told them what the problem was. And they didn&#039 ; t know what to do. So, see, when I was in school, I playing minister when I seen them. So, I knew how to preside, knew all about tricks, and stuff like that, and um, so when I saw they were about to be taken advantage of, I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll handle it&quot ; I just told them, I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll handle it.&quot ; So, I knew. I had been here several times. I knew the order of worship, and things like that. And some more pastors came. And people rolled out, it was like a carnival. People were all outdoors. The house was packed. People were all around the walls. And blah, blah, blah. But I didn&#039 ; t really care. And I did not want this church. But that Saturday evening, the Lord told me I had to come here. And so, I, I really didn&#039 ; t care. So, when I saw what the problem was, when I came downstairs at the beginning of morning worship, I never did sit down. I didn&#039 ; t give anybody else a chance to even get in the pulpit. And so, I, I carried out all the worship, and like I supposed too, and then I announced my text because, what they were waiting for was, when I sat down, one of the visiting pastors was going to get up and introduce the other man. And I sensed that. So, I never did sit down. And that thwarted all that. And of course, I preached, and I preached out of the Book of Acts. And my text was &quot ; Except these abide in the ship, they cannot be saved.&quot ; And of course, that&#039 ; s scripture that Paul gave the people. He was on the way to Rome. The ship he was riding on got into a storm. They lost the ship and the cargo, but God told Paul to tell the people to stay on the ship and nobody would get drowned. And so, I announced my text, and my sermon was to stay with the ship. And of course, I was, I ---------(?)(?). Boy I was smart. I was a smart boy. I mean, it was awesome. It was awesome. And eight folk joined the church that morning. And, but I had to get back to Glen Flora Spanish Camp. Because it was, they were having a special service for me and Glen Flora. And so I, a man was here and he said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll take you back&quot ; . He wanted a church too and I told him, &quot ; You aren&#039 ; t going to get this church. They done called me.&quot ; But I told him another church had tried to call, but you go there and tell them I sent you. And they&#039 ; ll call you. So, he went, and he told them later on that I sent him. And he got the church. He get me back in town in the day and time for me to get the special service they had for me. And of course, I was heartsick. Because I know words were God&#039 ; s and I knew I had to accept this church. And of course, I went on and preached for them. And of course, by the, and by this time, the wheels were turning, and they went on. And there was this guy out of Waco that wanted this church. And of course, he preached here. But everybody, they called me the little boy. And they said &quot ; No, we want the little boy.&quot ; So, they didn&#039 ; t want him. And so, they got together, and they called me to this church. But I knew it. The Lord had showed it to me. And he showed me a rainbow. And I was at the beginning of the rainbow and then I went high up in the sky. I never did come down. And that implied that I was coming here, but I would never leave here, to me. And I&#039 ; ve been here seventy years. I&#039 ; ve been offered other churches, but like I tell them, I can&#039 ; t go anywhere if God don&#039 ; t show it to me. MAYFIELD: So, as a pastor, here in Texas City, did you have to find your house? Did you live in the-- BENFORD: No. In those days, churches of any size, and especially for a parsonage. You see, most churches had service twice a month. And even then, they would provide a home for the preacher. They call it a parsonage. So, this church had a parsonage. They had somewhere where the preacher to live. And they call it a parsonage. So, when I came here, they had a parsonage. But everything here was run down. It hadn&#039 ; t been painted in twenty years ; you know. It was just bad. And the church hadn&#039 ; t been painted in twenty years. Didn&#039 ; t have any sewage, and all that kind of stuff. It was just, it was just in shambles. And the church I was pastor at in the country was in a lot better shape than this church was, and all that. But but, God is showing me that this was my place. And of course, I know nobody God knows when He, when God shows you something, that&#039 ; s the way it&#039 ; s going to be. So, my heart was broken. I accepted the fact that this was my field of labor. And of course, it was several weeks before they called me. They finally got out and they did call me. MAYFIELD: So, you&#039 ; re up in Spanish Camp and you got a call from the folks in Texas City. BENFORD: Yeah. See, what I was living on Conroe College campus. And I just go to, I&#039 ; d go to Wharton on my pastoral days. Then I&#039 ; d come back to Conroe, because I still work there with preaching and things. So, then, when I, --see, I didn&#039 ; t have a full-time church, and all that. But they were trying to combine two churches, so they could maybe keep me there full time, back in that day. And, but they never got around to it because, because this church called me and they were a full time church. And so, because the Spirit, the Holy Spirit had shown me that this was my church anyway. So, I just kind of played it out, and, and in August, they called me to this church. And so then, I had to give up Rising Star Spanish Camp, and I pastored for this Baptist church in a little town called Glen Flora. I had to give them both up. And on the second Sunday in September, I did my last sermon in Spanish Camp, and I came here to take this church full time. And that was in 1950. MAYFIELD: The Rising Star Baptist Church in 1950. BENFORD: Yeah. They&#039 ; re both call Rising Star. This Rising Star came out of the one I pastored in Wharton. So, I just left one Rising Star to come to another one. MAYFIELD: Yeah, I see. Okay. So, now you are in your parsonage and you&#039 ; re getting yourself sorted out, um, with your parishioners, um, with your congregation-- BENFORD: --yeah, and it&#039 ; s a transition. And of course, they naturally tried to fix this up and fix that up. And they wanted me to come and live. And so, I moved from Conroe, here. I left. I moved from Conroe College, here, to this church. And of course, I didn&#039 ; t have anything to move, except for some clothes, and stuff like that. And I moved that here. And then I had to get furnished and all that here. But they took care of all that. I had phone installed and room furnished, and stuff like that. Because I went to work on the sewage here because there wasn&#039 ; t any sewage here, period. They had to use cesspools, in those days, here. There wasn&#039 ; t any gas. They had one line. Somebody ran a line up to the church. You know, this whole area was primitive. It, wherever you are, there wasn&#039 ; t nothing out here but prairies, and stuff like that. But folk were building homes, on their own. And there were no regulations. You just build what you wanted to build. The city didn&#039 ; t care what you build in those days. They didn&#039 ; t care what negroes build. And so, people build their home homes. And everybody here come from somewhere else, and they would build me a house to stay in. And they would build you a house next week. I&#039 ; d say everybody would just chip in and help build you a house. They&#039 ; d build whatever kind of house you wanted to build. MAYFIELD: So you-- BENFORD: Because they had a parsonage. The church had a parsonage, so they didn&#039 ; t have to build no house. It was just run down, and all that kind of stuff. MAYFIELD: What was the address of the parsonage? BENFORD: It was on Oak Street. MAYFIELD: It was on Oak Street? BENFORD: It was, at that time, they called it 1206 Oak Street. MAYFIELD: I heard that there was a fire there. When was that? BENFORD: A fire? MAYFIELD: Yes sir. BENFORD: Well, that came later on. See when I came here, there was a big tank behind this church. Where my education building is, was a tank. And of course, and rabbits and stuff like that. And so, this was really primitive country land. And so, then, when I came, I went to work on it. I was so ashamed of it. The first thing I did, I had to try to get the sewage drained out. So, I had to get some new cesspools put in so we could have sewage in the church. And I had a man here named Leroy Davis. And he had experience in cesspools. And he came, and he just started on his own. And everybody joined in with him. So, then we put down a set of real cesspools that looked like sewage. And that got sewage in the church and sewage in my parsonage, and stuff like that. And then, the building had not been painted in twenty years. And so, down Hwy, that was Hwy 3 now, it used to be 75. There was a lumberyard called Blackburn Lumberyard. So, I went out and told them, &quot ; I want to get some paint and we&#039 ; ll pay you later.&quot ; So, I went, I went and got some five-gallon paint. And I started painting the church. And so, when the men saw me painting, then all the folk, when they go to work, in the evening, then they come and join me, and we start painting the church outside. You couldn&#039 ; t even tell, it had been so long, you couldn&#039 ; t even tell what color the paint was. But I knew how to paint because I did that when I was going to school, at my old school. So, they joined me. And everybody in town, said &quot ; That preacher is painting the church, we got to go help him.&quot ; And so, everybody came, and we got this church painted. We got two coats of paint on it and turned it back to snow white. Snow white. And we got the towers painted and all. There was a man named William S. Dale. He was a screwman. Yes, sir, he was a high-class longshoreman. He knew how to build scaffolds and things. And so, he and myself, we took the towers and we painted the towers. And it turned into a brand-new place, outside. Then of course then we came inside, and we did it on the inside. There was no carpet in the church, so then we got busy and we, raised the money and we put carpet in the church, and all that. And we turned it into a little garden spot real quick. I brought the inspiration, and they joined me. And so, we turned this old shell into a nice little place. I mean, a very nice little place. And of course, in the meantime, it began to grow. Folks started joining, and stuff like that. Then, in a couple of years here, this place was packed with people. And I was standing forward, coming here, moving here, and things like that. And I guess I must have been the kind of guy that they kind of liked. A hundred and ninety-eight folks joined the church the first year I was here. MAYFIELD: A hundred and eighty people joined the first year you were there? BENFORD: A hundred and ninety-eight. MAYFIELD: A hundred and ninety-eight. That&#039 ; s quite an accomplishment. BENFORD: Well, different places, you see, La Marque was growing. La Marque, at one time, used to be the fastest growing town in America. It was, it was news item. You see, they was building these plants here. See, that Carbide came here. American Oil came here. And Monsanto. And see, people come down here to work. They would come from all them rural places. Building homes here, and renting and it was just, there was no end to the people. At one time, this was the work center of the world. Texas City, Texas City. Texas City wasn&#039 ; t incorporated. I mean, La Marque wasn&#039 ; t incorporated. And so they called this La Marque. All this land at one time, was not incorporated. And there was people here, white, Black, all kind of folk. And they let you build anything you wanted to build -- MAYFIELD: --how long did you live BENFORD: --a house. MAYFIELD: How long did you live at this parsonage? Was it always at the same location? Did it--, was it always -- BENFORD: It was a short while because the church burned. I stayed in the parsonage for about two years, or something like that. MAYFIELD: So, after two years, like in 19-- BENFORD: --the parsonage was already here. All we had to do was paint it up, you know, and all that. But what, the parsonage was right beside the church. It was on Oak Street. It faced Oak Street then. And of course, it was about, maybe, twenty feet from the church. And it was just a little, like a four-room house, and all that in general. There wasn&#039 ; t no lavish place or nothing like that. And of course, I, I moved in it. And they painted all the rooms, and stuff like that. And did this and did that. And they spruced it up. And it was in good shape. Tip top. The church and the parsonage. It was sparkling. And then, that&#039 ; s when the fire came. The fire came, December twenty-four, nineteen and forty fi--nineteen and fifty-two. I&#039 ; d been ---------(?)(?), you know. And we were really growing. They were on a rise. And then, I got it painted up. My house and the parsonage and I mean the church. And we had things sparkling. we were moving. And it was really going. And, but we had some automatic heaters in this church. Because it, it&#039 ; d get pretty cold down here. And of course, but it wasn&#039 ; t anything on the north side of the church. And when the wind would come from the north, that&#039 ; s where most northers came from. It would blow real, real hard. And the church was wood. And that allowed the wind to come in and of course, we had those automatic heaters. And it would blow the flame out from underneath the heater, you know, onto the wires and things like that. And that&#039 ; s what happened here. December the twenty third, this great big, powerful norther came here. That because we had sacked the food for the Christmas tree. We always did have Santa Claus, and stuff like that, for the kids. And we, I helped them do it. We got it all sacked and everything. And at that time, my first wife was in Tyler, Texas at a tuberculosis asylum. They thought she had tuberculosis. But she didn&#039 ; t. She had ; she had a tumor in her lung. And ah, but then they finally found it out, so they sent her back to John Sealy. And they told us, she didn&#039 ; t have tuberculosis. She has a tumor in her lung. And a doctor named Doctor Middleton, he was in charge of that lung division. And he operated on her and took that tumor out, finally. But, in the meantime, I was going to go pick her up anyway. And I had, I just bought a brand new &#039 ; 49 Pontiac. It was toffee and two-door. And I filled it up and put it down in the chute, you know. And I was going to go pick up my wife that morning, about six o&#039 ; clock and bring her back here for Christmas. And it was December 23rd. And so then, on December 24th, this is when this wind blew this fire out and it must have set the wires on fire, where the heaters was. And they were under the pulpit, the heaters were. And a lot of draft under there, and all that stuff. And lo and behold, when I went to bed that night, after we had sacked all the food. And I had, there was a rat, a rat. And every night, when I would come home, it would be late. I&#039 ; d always read the paper. And that rat would come and he, and he gets right in front of me. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BENFORD: And so, we became kind of something like pals. I stopped chasing him. I couldn&#039 ; t catch him, anyway. And so, that night, someone had given me some chicken or something. You know, how people would bring something for you to eat. MAYFIELD: Uh hmm. BENFORD: And I had my paper. And so I was there, eating the chicken. I looked up and there he was. He was standing up on his two little legs watching me read the paper. And so, I didn&#039 ; t shoo him. I didn&#039 ; t run him away or nothing. I was ready to play with him. And I had food. I had, it was cold, oh boy, it was cold. Fighting cold. I went in my room and laid down. And there was an old man in this town. They called him Uncle Tom. And he was a wino. And he walked the streets, day, and night. Everybody in the community knew Uncle Tom. He was restless. And then he would also go up and get the people who had to walk up to work. There was a cafe right there on Texas Avenue. It&#039 ; s burned down now. It was called Bostick&#039 ; s Cafe. It was very, very popular. Matter of fact, they fed all them folk in those plants. Man, they&#039 ; d send boxes of dinners in. Boxes in. Along with that good business in that place. And they, but he did not practice segregation. MAYFIELD: So, the bo--, it was -- BENFORD: Back in the, back in the fifties, he did not practice segregation.  MAYFIELD: So, Mr. Bos--Bostick was his--Mr. Bostick was his name? BENFORD: Yeah, the name of the cafe was Bostick&#039 ; s. He was Italian.  MAYFIELD: And what was the name of the owner? BENFORD: His name was Bostick, too. It was after him. MAYFIELD: Oh, okay. It was after him. I see, okay. BENFORD: Yeah. But he was a well-known restaurateur. And he had worlds and worlds of business. He stayed open twenty-four hours a day. He used to feed the folk at the plants. They&#039 ; d order a hundred dinners and stuff like that. There was all kinds. And he had, he had a chef/cook named Jewel Garrett, Sr. Now he has children here right now. Jewel Garrett, does. He was Bostick&#039 ; s main cook. And man, he&#039 ; d get that stuff out. I mean, they had vans, and things, and pick-up trucks. And they carried hundreds into the Carbide. Picture this, I&#039 ; d remember going all day and all night. Plus, they had a great traffic. Because folks stopped there and eat too. And Bostick did not care where you sit. He did not practice segregation there. And everybody knew that too. So, I&#039 ; d just go sit down, and all that kind of stuff, you know. And but, he had a lot of Black help. And Uncle Tom, would come down past my church, there was some little apartments down there. And that&#039 ; s when folk, that lived in those apartments, they worked for Bostick&#039 ; s and every morning they would walk to work from below this church here. And he would go and walk with them. You know, just as a favor, you know, to women. And so, that morning, he had gone down to get them. And they were on their way, walking past the church, and they were the ones that saw that the church was on fire. I was asleep. Probably would have burned alive. MAYFIELD: So the church was on fire. Not just the parsonage? BENFORD: No, the parsonage was on the other side of the church. See, I was on the other side of the church. The church was first. And my parsonage was second. And there was a driveway between the church and my parsonage. And so then, so, the church was on fire. So, when they saw it, they knew where I slept. They came and they began to beat on the window. And, and I had just got to sleep real good. And I said, &quot ; Who is this waking me up&quot ; , at now in the morning that I have to try and go up to Tyler and pick my wife up. And something said, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t answer them&quot ; , but something else said, &quot ; Answer them.&quot ; So, I finally answered and let them know. And they told me that &quot ; the church is on fire!&quot ; And of course, when they said that, that was all they needed to say. I jumped out of bed and came to the door. And I didn&#039 ; t take no chances. I didn&#039 ; t put on no shoes or nothing. I had on some long johns. And that&#039 ; s what I came out of there in because I understood very well the wind was blowing from the north, and it could very easily engulf that house. And then I couldn&#039 ; t have got out at all. So, I came out. And of course, the ground was cold, and I was jumping up and down on cold ground. I had nothing on my feet. There wasn&#039 ; t no fire department here then. They had one little fire truck. And I do mean little one. So, then they called the fire department. But when I got there, then the people that live across the highway, they, everybody started coming like folk come to a fire. And of course, there was a man named William S. Dale. His house is still there. It was a very cute little old house. It&#039 ; s still there. He was that longshoreman I told you about that knew all about how to do scaffolding and things. And it just so happened that he was home that morning. He had not gone to the wharf. So, he came over here, everybody thought I was in the house. The house burned down before the church did. The flame was so strong. I got out of the house and then that, like I got over in the yard like. But the wind was blowing so, the flames engulfed the house. And in the meantime, when I first got out, everybody said, &quot ; Get your car! Get your car!&quot ; My car was down at the end of the church. So, I would have to run between the house and the parsonage to try to get the car and bring it out. And something told me, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t try it.&quot ; So, I didn&#039 ; t. I said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t care, let it burn.&quot ; And so, because the flames are blowing away from the church, and finally, the whole area was nothing but flames. Had I gone down in there, I never would have come out.  MAYFIELD: Oh. BENFORD: I never would have come out. Because the fire, wind was blowing the fire, and all that kind of stuff. And the Lord blessed me to get out. He came over. He saw that I didn&#039 ; t have no shoes. He saw all I had on was some long johns. And he was a big guy. He went and got me a pair of his pants, his old coat. And he brought me some rubber galoshes. And I put that on. And man, that wind was talking. MAYFIELD: Hmm. BENFORD: And of course, I, he wrapped me up in it and all that. And we just stood back and watched. And of course, people came, people began to come. They came from everywhere.  MAYFIELD: So you-- BENFORD: They thought I was in there. And he said, &quot ; No sir, Rev&#039 ; s not here.&quot ; I&#039 ; m out. I&#039 ; m not in there. They came screaming, hollering, and calling. I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m not in the house. I&#039 ; m out of the house.&quot ; MAYFIELD: People came because they were worried about you. BENFORD: Oh yeah. You see, the whole town saw the fire. And so everybody came, you know. La Marque and Texas City people came. And the fire was spectacular. And I mean that church was big. So, they came, but everybody thought that I was in there asleep. And of course, the house was just completely engulfed in fire. As a matter of fact, the house burned down before the church burned down. MAYFIELD: So, both the church and house burned down? BENFORD: They both burned. I mean they burned slap, down, to the ground. The only thing left was a pair of stairs, and a small portion of them. And they were on the north side of the house and the flames, the wind drew the flames away from the stairs. there was a small portion of them left. Everything else burned slap down to the ground. They brought the fire truck out. They didn&#039 ; t even try to put no fire out. MAYFIELD: So, the church and the house caught on fire, but what were you going to do as far as, um, preaching? Like-- BENFORD: Well, there wasn&#039 ; t anywhere to preach. See, it all burned down to the ground in a matter, you know, of minutes, an hour. Whatever it took. So, there wasn&#039 ; t no more church here. There wasn&#039 ; t anything here at all, for some ashes, and all that. So, then that left us outdoors. And we were a very popular church. And all that, you know, because we weren&#039 ; t the only one here. They had some more churches here. So, then that&#039 ; s when we started looking for some place where we could have church because there wasn&#039 ; t anything here you know, before Rising Star. MAYFIELD: So, you didn&#039 ; t build the church back on the same space? BENFORD: No, not right then. We had to get over it first. We had a little insurance. And so started making plans to, rebuild. But in the meantime, we had to first find somewhere to have church, so we could meet. And so, we started, started using Bell Zion. They offered that church to us. Bell Zion. And we used it a time or two. Then at the park. There was a place up there. We had a park up there and it had a little auditorium in it. And so we got, we secured that. And they started letting us meet in the park, so we started meeting there. And then, they had built a, they had built a funeral home on Hemphill Street. Mainland Funeral used to be on Hemphill Street. And of course, they had a chapel, and things like that, for funerals and things that. So, we started to go to from pillar to post. Pillar to post. MAYFIELD: So, so you start going to where, was it? I&#039 ; m sorry. BENFORD: I said, &quot ; Pillar to post.&quot ; It means, here, there, wherever we could land.  MAYFIELD: Okay. BENFORD: That&#039 ; s an old expression. It means, you have nowhere certain to go. But you could always find somewhere to go. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BENFORD: That&#039 ; s old folks&#039 ; terminology. When we went from pillar to post. MAYFIELD: Pillar to post. Okay.  BENFORD: Yeah. Just wherever you could go. Wherever you could land. Whoever said, &quot ; Yes,&quot ; that&#039 ; s where you went. And of course, in the city, the park, at that time, didn&#039 ; t belong to the city. The park belonged to the county. And three Black men had give them, the county, that park. Bell, Bell was a tycoon of La Marque. Patrick and Armstrong were Galvestonians. And they built a little subdivision, kind of near where the park is. And of course, they gave the park to--. And that was a big thing, the park was for Blacks. Of course, whites had their own parks and so they had no need for it. But in the meantime, wherever we could find a convenient place, that&#039 ; s where we would have church on Sundays. And sometimes, we would stay two and three weeks, and then we would have to go move somewhere else.  MAYFIELD: How long did it, how long did it take you to build a new church? BENFORD: It took two, three years. I know it took over two. It took over two for us to get back into, you know. Because we didn&#039 ; t have much insurance. And of course, we had to get you know, we had to get some plans. And all that took time. And trying to keep the folk together. People, but people had joined our church when we was outdoors. They joined, and all that. And then, we finally got some plans. And, because we had a big disaster. The plans we had for the first church, after it burned, were beautiful. And it was, oh, larger. And had a parsonage built on the end of it, like an &quot ; L&quot ; . It was all together. And we found a guy that could build it, and all that kind of stuff, you know. He was Black. And but he had the backings of powerful white folk. And he had built stuff in Houston, so we knew he could build it. And ultimately, we made a deal with him MAYFIELD: What was his name?-- BENFORD: --to build the church. His name was Reuben Polk. Reuben Polk. P-o-l-k. He was a huge guy. But he was Indian. You would look at him and you could see it all over him. He was Indian. I don&#039 ; t know what tribe he was from, but he was up from around New Waverly. He was Indian, but he was a powerful, businesslike guy and a contractor. And he had the backing of some of the most powerful men in the area. Yeah, he had the backing, he had the backing of Miss Hanson, and some more guys. And they were builders too. But he built, he&#039 ; d build for anybody. But he built primarily for Blacks. He had already built three or four churches in Houston. So he made it known that he would build the church for us. And naturally we used him for the main contractor. And we had a, it was an awesome this thing. If I had built that, man, oh, whew, oh whew. MAYFIELD: Why did it not get, why, what happened? Why did it not get built? BENFORD: Well, we had fifteen thousand cash dollars. And we paid that down on the church. And this fella, they financed it. They were going to finance it. They were going to finance it. As for the white folks, they didn&#039 ; t, it was no problem at all to get a church. Now, Black folk and all, would get a church financed. At least, you used to could. Now a church debt is a debt that white men, white folk, know they ain&#039 ; t going to lose. And so I wasn&#039 ; t going to have no trouble financing it. But, so, I paid him that down. And then, on the Sunday before he was beginning to build it, he was a rodeo man. He loved rodeos. And he was in Houston, at a place called Cid&#039 ; s Ranch, they had a big Black rodeo ground there. It was strictly Black. It was where the Blacks had their rodeos. And he was there. And they rode. And everybody knew about Cid&#039 ; s Ranch, and this big motel and cafe and everything. And he was trying to ride a horse, and the horse threw him and broke his leg. Threw him on Sunday and broke his leg. And by Monday morning, he had double pneumonia. He, that guy weighed about 270 pounds. He was tall. And so, then, but we were looking for him. But we didn&#039 ; t know it, about the, the accident until Monday morning. Everybody was here to greet him, and for him to start the building. But he didn&#039 ; t show. So, I said that something must have happened, because he didn&#039 ; t show. So, then, I had his number, and I went and came in here, same office, and I called him. I called him. And he barely could talk. And he said, &quot ; Reverend, sorry, I&#039 ; m in the Baptist Hospital.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; I had an accident yesterday, and so I got throwed by a horse and my leg is broke.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; I got double pneumonia.&quot ; Well, that was an act of God. And we all knew that. So, I got in my car, and I drove down there. And there he was. And the folk waited. I came back and said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ve seen him.&quot ; I said, &quot ; He is in the hospital, leg broke.&quot ; There is nothing we can do. But they couldn&#039 ; t understand that. They couldn&#039 ; t understand it was an act of God. And so, they had a meeting again, and act like he done stole our money. And, and they, they went to pieces. I lost control of them. And then they accused me of stealing it with him. And, oh boy, they put Joshua on me. But, in the meantime, the district attorney in Galveston, fined people, I had them come out and tell them, y&#039 ; all ain&#039 ; t got nothing to worry about. This man got 180 days after the contract expires to start. And if he don&#039 ; t start then, then we can file charges on him. But until then, see, I don&#039 ; t, we don&#039 ; t think he&#039 ; s trying to beat y&#039 ; all. But you couldn&#039 ; t them that. You couldn&#039 ; t tell them that. They thought, he had run off with their money. And man, they went to pieces. And that drug on, man, for whew, hew. That drug on for, well over a year and a half. and there wasn&#039 ; t anything he could do. And so, finally, he got to where he could travel. And then they got mad and said they didn&#039 ; t want him to build it. Well, that voided the contract. We had already paid him fifteen thousand dollars on it. That was just money we gave away. But they didn&#039 ; t understand that. And of course, Black people, a lot of them, don&#039 ; t understand business. And, and I explained to them, now you can&#039 ; t get the money back. I said, I said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s like giving it to him. We got to give him every chance we can to come and build it. If he don&#039 ; t build it, then you ain&#039 ; t got, you got the law to put him, they put him in jail if he don&#039 ; t build it&quot ; , so to speak. And so, I couldn&#039 ; t make them see it. And I was just twenty--I came out-- so, I was about twenty-two, or something like that. I was young. But I knew how to handle folk. I was good at handling folk, I could handle them. And I could handle them, but them old timers, they just so sure they&#039 ; d been frauded. And man, then when he got to where he could build it, they were mad and said, &quot ; We don&#039 ; t want him to build it.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Aw, we can&#039 ; t say that now, don&#039 ; t say that.&quot ; If you say that, he&#039 ; s going to sue you.&quot ; And sure enough, he did. He sued us for the rest of that money. In order to make us let him build it. And of course, they didn&#039 ; t understand that. And when he sued the church, boy, you talk about blasphemy. Anybody sues a church, you know, in those days, you was a mess. He sued us because this was the contract. But he sued us all to make us let him build it. MAYFIELD: So, he built it? BENFORD: Huh? MAYFIELD: So, he did build it. BENFORD: He sued it. Yeah. Yeah, finally. Not then. He sued us. And then, we got exploited. We had, we had some lawyers, you know. And they knew better. But they told him, you know, they, if they would give him so much money. Make him, I say, &quot ; you ain&#039 ; t going to give no nobody nothing.&quot ; The district attorney came here and told you, you ain&#039 ; t got to give nobody nothing. Just wait on the contract to expire. If he don&#039 ; t start, we will arrest him. We&#039 ; ll send him to Leavenworth, for fraud. But they couldn&#039 ; t see it. Them old, stubborn, hard of understanding, and so the battle went on, and on, and on, and on, and on. And they wouldn&#039 ; t give in. If you don&#039 ; t want him to build it. And of course, then I was trying to keep them together. And they were on me too. They accused me of being in cahoots with him. And, but at the same time, I still remain here. And I preached. And the church went on pretty good, because a lot of folks knew I didn&#039 ; t. And so, the majority of the folk understood me, and they understood their lack of understanding. So, I had a little fellow by the name of William Andrew Bryan. He was a little short dude, He, he come, why, I thought he was four feet tall. If not, he wasn&#039 ; t an inch or two over. But he was a real good preacher. And a real good songster. And they knew him. He used to teach way before the church burned, and blah, blah, blah. And so, he came through. And of course, they, they didn&#039 ; t want anybody but me, that crowd was hot! Now, they didn&#039 ; t preach. On one Sunday morning, and oh, man, they went wild. And they, they wasn&#039 ; t listening to me. So, they, just, they went wild. So, the Holy Spirit told me to ask him to stay in and revival. Because they liked him so. They liked him. And he said, &quot ; Yeah, I&#039 ; ll stay.&quot ; So, I announced the revival. Man, the folk came, whew. At that time, we were going over to Mainland Funeral on Hemphill Street. And they had a real nice chapel. And it had two offices and a john, blah, blah, blah. And so, we, we, we, they came that first night. And he preached. Oh, they just went wild. They came there that second night. Oh, man, they, he, they went wild again. And I don&#039 ; t, I didn&#039 ; t, I didn&#039 ; t know this was going to happen. That third night, he preached. And it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s a text in Kings. And the text says, &quot ; Why sit here till we die&quot ; . So, lepers, and they couldn&#039 ; t go to town. They couldn&#039 ; t show themselves in public. And they were starving to death. But, Syria, the same Syrians in the ---------(?)(?) now. At that time, they, they had sent an army to fight against Jerusalem. Jerusalem. And of course, and they had the town surrounded. And they wouldn&#039 ; t let nobody in or nobody out. And there was a famine inside the city. People sold their children. They ate people&#039 ; s arms. It was a horrible situation. But they were there, and they had plenty of stuff to survive the army. But these lepers were out there in the woods, so they were starving to death too. So, they said, &quot ; We can&#039 ; t go to town.&quot ; And said, &quot ; If we sit here, we&#039 ; re going to die.&quot ; Said, &quot ; If we go to the enemy camp, they may feed us or they may kill us.&quot ; And they said, &quot ; Why sit here and die?&quot ; &quot ; If we, we&#039 ; re going to the Syrians and see if they just give us the scraps of what they had.&quot ; So, when they got over there, the Lord had moved and killed all of them. The Lord killed 185,000 Syrian soldiers. And they can, and the lepers were the ones that found them first.  MAYFIELD: So, this was the story-- BENFORD: It is in the Bible. It is a true story. It&#039 ; s a true story. And so, the first lepers came, and they pigged out and ate all they wanted, and everything. Got all they wanted. They, they went back to, they, they couldn&#039 ; t come to town. Lepers were abandoned. Isolated. And so when they got back to their places, they sit down, full. But they thought about informing Jerusalem, you know, being cannibals, and eating one another, and eating up children. And they said, now, they said this is in the Bible, &quot ; We do not well&quot ; . We know something, and they needed to know it. So, we are going to go tell them people what we found. And that night, when he preached it, that&#039 ; s the text he took. God gave it to him. And he preached about, &quot ; We do not well.&quot ; And he took that situation and compared it to us fighting and feuding among ourselves. And not letting the man come build the church. He out waiting to build it. And we outdoors and going pillar to post. And he made it just fit us perfect. Perfect! I mean, perfect. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BENFORD: We could see ourselves. And some of the folk got up and started walking. And they started talking out in church. Some started using profane language. And because it condemned them. And then some of the folk was glad to hear it. So, when I saw how convicted the people were, I stood up and I stopped him. I told ; I told him the revival was over. And all the money we raised ; it was in a sack. We gave it to him because I saw a point where we would get through it. And then, there was a crowd of folk from the church that said, &quot ; Reverend, what can we do?&quot ; I said, &quot ; All of you that want to build a church, and are going to follow my leadership, you all come with me.&quot ; So, I carried them up into one of those little offices and about twenty or thirty men came. They wasn&#039 ; t deacons. They was just lay people. It&#039 ; s real working with you. And all we got to do is go tell the man to come and build the church. I said, &quot ; I just need a committee to go and let him know.&quot ; And so, we got five or six guys. They were all good men. And they went out and told him, come on and build the church. And that&#039 ; s the way that thing ended. MAYFIELD: Ah. BENFORD: He came. And he was also, he was high in masonry. MAYFIELD: Who was the man who built the church? BENFORD: Reuben Polk. The same guy that-- MAYFIELD: Oh, the same guy. Oh, okay. BENFORD: Yes. He&#039 ; s well now. He&#039 ; s well. And he was walking, and all that. They just wouldn&#039 ; t let him build it. He was willing to build it. They were just mean and wouldn&#039 ; t let him build it.  MAYFIELD: Hmm.  BENFORD: Because he didn&#039 ; t build it when he said he was going to build it. [End of first session.] MAYFIELD: Good afternoon. Today is Thursday, October 8, [2020], and my name is Theresa Mayfield. And we are doing our second part of our African American Experience Oral History project. And we are here today, well actually, remotely today, with Reverend D. N. Benford from the Rising Star Baptist Church. Good afternoon, Reverend Benford. How are you today? BENFORD: Fine, thank you. And thank you for having me.  MAYFIELD: Absolutely, not a problem. Reverend Benford, the last that we talked, we were in the story of Polk. You--, the church had burnt down, and um, there was controversy with who would be the new builder for the church. And at the end, we had, you had, you were able to get Mr. Polk to build the church. Is that correct? BENFORD: Yes. Um, he had never tried not to build it. He merely had an accident before the time for him to start. And the contract that we had made with him was he had 180 days in case of an act of God to do his work.  MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BENFORD: And of course, the people not being knowledgeable of law and things, they thought he was trying to run away from them. And of course, we did all we could to convince them that he wasn&#039 ; t trying to not do the work. He wasn&#039 ; t able to do the work. And that what happened to him was an act of God. He did break his leg and have double pneumonia, and all that. And so, he was in the contract allowed him to get well before he could do this. And of course, the people, aged, and a lot, many of them were hard of understanding of legal things. And it tried to get a big dog fight. And of course, he sued the church in order to make them let him build it. And of course, he already had a portion of the cash for the building. And of course, he could lose. And so, then we ultimately, we had to calm the senior members down and make them understand that he was not trying to, get away with the money, and avoid not building it. He just wasn&#039 ; t able to. And other after weeks and months of wrangling, we were able to settle it. And he did come and made peace with everybody. And he did build us a building. It wasn&#039 ; t the building we had at first, but it was still a lovely place. And we were able to live in it and be happy. Yeah, we solved it. MAYFIELD: So, you&#039 ; re saying that he used a different drawing for the church? BENFORD: Well, we, we use a different design. It took us about two years to get this done. And somewhere in the process, um, we were, we changed our design, and all, for the building that we had planned to build at first.  MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BENFORD: And all, and we, actually we cut back on some of the, some of the expansion-- MAYFIELD: Okay BENFORD: --and all. But it, it still worked out real good. MAYFIELD: When did the church finally be built? Was it-- BENFORD: It was rebuilt in 1956. MAYFIELD: Nineteen fifty-six.  BENFORD: Yes, ma&#039 ; am. MAYFIELD: And it burnt down in December of 1952? BENFORD: That&#039 ; s right. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Oh, so quite a number of years, then. Yes. BENFORD: Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Where was the church located? Did your church have this specific-- BENFORD: The church is located at 302-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BENFORD: --, North Oak Street. At that time, it was called 1206 North Oak. It&#039 ; s in the same place it&#039 ; s been since 1914. MAYFIELD: Since 1914. BENFORD: Yeah. This church has always been in this location. And at that time, Hwy 75 was the only road to Galveston. And the freeway had not been built, and so, there was a lot, so, there was always a lot of traffic. It&#039 ; s called Hwy 3, now. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BENFORD: But this used to be originally, Hwy 75.  MAYFIELD: So you had a lot of, you had a lot of traffic going past your church, then. BENFORD: Well, everybody, that went to Galveston, had to come right by it-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm BENFORD: --, this church, this church. MAYFIELD: Was the neighborhood that the church was in, I&#039 ; m assuming that you lived, you built a rectory, and that you lived in the rectory at the church. Is that right? BENFORD: Are you asking me was that the, was it a big neighborhood? MAYFIELD: So, did they also-- BENFORD: It was more of a rural setting. La Marque, at the time, was growing tremendously. There was a lot of land here. But it was, it was undeveloped. And people, they&#039 ; d come here because of the work that was being offered to folk who came in from other areas. And so people began to build houses and on their own. And of course, these houses that they built, they were not necessarily built by city code. They just, whatever they, back in those days, they didn&#039 ; t care what you built as long as you were happy with it. We were not held to city codes when it came to building. But the area grew at a rapid pace, and so, up and around this church there was a number of houses and things.  MAYFIELD: Did the community have a name? BENFORD: They called this whole area, La Marque.  MAYFIELD: La Marque? BENFORD: Yeah. At one time, they called this whole area, it&#039 ; s now known as West Texas City. But it was, it was called La Marque.  MAYFIELD: I heard that it was called Andrew Street community. Does that sound familiar? BENFORD: No. That, I&#039 ; ve never heard that before. MAYFIELD: Never heard that before? BENFORD: We just kind of knew, Oak Street. And of course, there&#039 ; s houses beginning to build, and all that. The name of our street came later. MAYFIELD: The name of your street. So, you just had roads, but no street names. BENFORD: Yeah. Now, there was a settlement called the Howard Settlement. It was a lot of people come in here from Louisiana. And they were, primarily, were Howards. And they were about, maybe, I&#039 ; d say a block from the church. Kind of going east. And then, but everybody that lived in that settlement primarily were Howards. And so, they referred to that as the Howard Settlement.  MAYFIELD: The Howard Settlement. And, and the rectory was at the church again, I&#039 ; m imagining. The rectory, where you and your wife and family lived? BENFORD: Yeah. We, yeah. The church was a landmark. And of course, when they built, and they, they built their homes and things, kind of like around the church. And they would build on all sides. At one time, La Marque was the fastest growing area, they said, in the United States. MAYFIELD: I know, you mentioned that. BENFORD: Poor, poor, poor ------(?)(?)folk were coming here from different areas, Louisiana, and Marshall, and Brazos Bottom, Brenham, and all around because there were a lot of jobs here. Factories going up quickly here. And these people came because of steady work. And so, they worked for the companies by day, and they&#039 ; d build their houses by night. And they had something like a community club and everybody would just get in and help me build my house. And I&#039 ; d help you build yours. And, and that&#039 ; s how La Marque, the first stage of La Marque grew up. MAYFIELD: Like one person helping the other, everybody just helping each other. BENFORD: Yeah, yeah. Neighbors helping neighbors. MAYFIELD: Hmm. Neighbors helping neighbors. Did you live? Where did you and your family live? BENFORD: This church had built a parsonage. MAYFIELD: Parsonage. BENFORD: And so, they had a house designated for the preacher to live in. And it was on, it was on Oak Street. And of course, it was facing Oak Street, right beside the church. But when the church burned, it burned down too. The parsonage burned with the church. So, then, we had to, we had to kind of get out and kind of locate somewhere to stay in. We did that. MAYFIELD: You did that until the parsonage was rebuilt? BENFORD: Yeah. We didn&#039 ; t, we didn&#039 ; t get the parsonage back until years later. MAYFIELD: Okay. Did the parsonage, was it built at the same time? BENFORD: Yeah, the patronage burned down before the church did. The wind came by the north, and it was very, very strong. And so it blew the flames on the parsonage from the church.  MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BENFORD: Both, both houses burned. And they were wood. MAYFIELD: They were made out of wood. BENFORD: It was a bad Norther. And it, it took it down. MAYFIELD: Can you tell me a little bit about the racial and economic make-up of your community? BENFORD: The racial make-up, it was lots and lots of people that came in here when they discovered the work and the good pay, and things like that. And of course, um, they moved in, and then, most of these people were good people. They were honest people and they just, they wanted to belong, and all they wanted was some economic security, and steady income, and things like that. So, a great ma--, most of the people were not bad folk or nothing like that. They were Christian people and they come out of good homes and all that. And of course, there was an element in our area of folk who never abided by life and things like that. It was not necessarily lots of bad things, but normal things did happen. And of course, in the Black community, in our community, the leaders, pastors like myself, we had quite a voice in try--in controlling our people, encouraging our folk to, to go in the right path, and avoid problem with the police. And we did. We had a police force here, and all. Basically, things went well. Every now and then, something would happen between the police and somebody in the community. And of course, there was no way to deal with folks downtown. So, the preacher, and I was a preacher in this area, we would have to go downtown and talk with the police chief and try to explain what happened. And encourage him to encourage his officers to try to be understanding, and, and, and then we could always, we, we, solved a lot of problems. We handled the trouble. But when, but we weren&#039 ; t asking anybody to let us do the wrong thing. We knew the boy to be of help, and things like that. But everybody gots into the police were not necessarily bad. Some were good folk. And they deserved another chance. And we were just like that. I knew the police chiefs, Dewald Rankin, and , and I think one guy named William, and they were, they were nice men. And they would listen. They would listen to the preacher. And of course, I knew the JP, here. They had a commissioner named Jeffery Dale. And most, and most of the time, whatever would happen, they would come through here and the police force and it was kind of a little family relationship. And if I thought people were good and true blue and, and were not looking for difficulty with laws, we would speak good of them. And they would release people to us, to me if I had any faith in them. And we had to bring them back. And they warned them, and because, in those days, well, they didn&#039 ; t, the bond system wasn&#039 ; t in ---------(?)(?). So, ---------(?)(?) normal things. [Note: buzzing interference]. You could always get a person out because they were working. And that&#039 ; s what the culture wanted. They wanted our folk to work. And if we explained to them that they had a job and a family and they needed to work so they could pay their fine and they&#039 ; d always let us have them. And they, and they would show up when they were supposed to. And it worked out kind of like a little family relationship.  MAYFIELD: Oh, that&#039 ; s-- BENFORD: It did work fine. It worked very, very well. And Justice Dale was just, I don&#039 ; t know what you would call him. He was just a people&#039 ; s person. He didn&#039 ; t look at color when it came to what was right and wrong. And if you were Black and you were wrong, then he would tell you that you were wrong. And if you were white and you were wrong, he would tell them they were, they were wrong. And he kept things pretty equal, almost. He did not allow the law to exploit the Blacks, and all that. Because there were those who would crush them and take advantage of them. And if he thought like you was caught dealing and things, they would (laughs) , he, he tell you was right or wrong. And that just was the way it was. And everybody accepted it. He didn&#039 ; t care about the color. If you were right, you right, or if you&#039 ; re wrong, you&#039 ; re wrong. ***[end of second session part 1] [start of second session part 2, no introduction, technical difficulty resulted in a brief amount of omitted audio] BENFORD: And each house had to have its own cesspool because that gave sanitation in the house and the disposal of waste. And there was a little water and a little gas. Just some lines like. And they, they would bring the lines down and you could tie into them. It, it wasn&#039 ; t a lot of pressure, and stuff, but we had minor water and minor sewage because of low water pressure. And of course, those make gas also. So, there was maybe one gas line, and if you could get to it and dig you a line and tie into it, you had gas. And most, and, and that&#039 ; s kind of the way they was first. MAYFIELD: So, you had, you could get gas lines later on. You could tie into gas lines ---------(?)(?). BENFORD: You had to kind of, you had to kind of do that yourself. Um, if I wanted, if I wanted a water line to my house, I had to kind of, get it, I had to get it dug. Get the pipe and stuff and tie into a line. Their line down here. You had to tie into it. And if I wanted gas, it was kind of on the same lines. And of course, the church had been able to get water and gas in the area to the church. And because the other folk would tie into it and they&#039 ; d carry it a little bit further, and carry it a little bit further, and that&#039 ; s where we got our water and our, our gas. And of course, they did have electric, electricity. At that time, it would be weak, but, as they&#039 ; d progress, they&#039 ; d get in transformers, and sometimes the lights would go out, if it got overheated, and all that. Because of the fast and rapid pace of growth, in that same time, the city, there were appeals being made to give us, you know, a kind of power, and a size of pipes and things that could accommodate it. And that came slowly but surely. MAYFIELD: As your area began to grow and grow-- BENFORD: Yes, yeah. MAYFIELD: --you started getting more of a--- BENFORD: Of course--- MAYFIELD: --better infrastructure. BENFORD: --and then, then while this was going on, the city of La Marque attempted to annex an area for the City of La Marque. And they did do it, but they left everything on the west side of what we call Texas Avenue. They only, they only, incorporated the area on the right-hand side of Texas Avenue and called it La Marque, and they left this area, what we ca--, what we now call West Texas City unincorporated. And because, the idea was to annex La Marque first, and then to claim what we now know as West Texas City. And of course, in the process, when they, when they annexed and called it La Marque, the City of Texas City had an emergency meeting, and they annexed the area now known as West Texas City. And, oh, my goodness, it almost started a civil war.  MAYFIELD: So, many people were not happy about that? BENFORD: Well, yes. Because, what it actually did, it split La Marque half in two. And of course, and there are people who did not want to be a part of Texas City. And then La Marque, La Marque didn&#039 ; t want to cut their ---------(?)(?) off either, but half of them, and they could not untie them. So, actually, I got, I was left out of La Marque, where we are. And we, we became part of what they call West Texas City.  MAYFIELD: Do you remember what year that was?  BENFORD: Hmm, no, I really don&#039 ; t. But I know one thing, it was a long time ago. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BENFORD: We can look at the records and find when they incorporated. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BENFORD: Um, La Marque, and of course, they, annexation of what we call West Texas City took place just a few days after that.  MAYFIELD: Oh. BENFORD: Texas City had a emergency meeting, commissions, and they took up all the land La Marque did not incorporate. And we were renamed West Texas City. And there was a lot of hard feelings here, for years. The old-timers, they didn&#039 ; t, they didn&#039 ; t take that too good. MAYFIELD: So, what, what, so what Texas City did was legal, and-- BENFORD: Yeah, by annexing the territory La Marque out was legal. And even though La Marque fought this in court, and all that, they could not undo it. Texas City had a legal right to annex this territory if they wanted it. And they did it. But it split the town. And the old-timers, who, who, here, they, ---------(?)(?) --some of them died who didn&#039 ; t get over that. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: So, in your neighborhood, did you leave your doors unlocked? BENFORD: Yes, back in those days. And the church also. We didn&#039 ; t, we didn&#039 ; t lock anything. Nobody worried about, you know, anybody coming in. And when we locked the church house up, you could come in anytime you wanted to, day or night. It, it was back, it was, designed like that. You were neighbors, we looked after one another. We did not lock our doors. We go, we go ---------(?)(?) go, go, go and come back and you&#039 ; d find things intact. La Marque climate was very, very nice, in those days.  MAYFIELD: So, everybody felt safe. BENFORD: Yeah, everybody felt safe. MAYFIELD: Do you recall any, well, you mentioned that the fire from the church, but do you recall any other types of disasters that took place? BENFORD: Well, not major, because the Texas City blast had taken place in &#039 ; 47. And of course, the Sixth Street area and all that area in there, it was all kind of wrecked and tore up. But nothing else major happened, in our area. And we, I not that I can recall. We had, we didn&#039 ; t have any more explosions, and things like that. If we did have, they were minor.  MAYFIELD: What about hurricanes? BENFORD: Well, occasionally, we would get one. Back in those days, I don&#039 ; t know, I guess we, people, they, they just ride them out. MAYFIELD: They stay in their house? BENFORD: Yeah, stay in your house, and all that. And ride them out. And, and of course, we didn&#039 ; t have a problem of water, either too much. I will recall water being a problem back in those days, but we didn&#039 ; t have a subdivision and things that we got now. So, water seemed to kind of take care of itself. MAYFIELD: What if someone was ill, or injured, where would they go? What ho--, would they go to a doctor, or a hospital? BENFORD: Well, we had, in La Marque, we had a little, a clinic. And of course, John Sealy was a major place for illnesses. And there was no hospital out here, on the Mainland for a long drive. And of course, they just depend on local doctors. And when there was, anything was out of their hands, they just refer you to John Sealy. And everybody would go there. And there was quite a, it was problematic in that there was not a lot of transportation to Galveston for hospital near people. And of course, the preacher, the pastor played a big role in getting people to John Sealy and back from John Sealy. And I was like, EMS, ambulance. It was part of my ministry chores to make sure that everybody that needed to go to the doctor would get a ride that didn&#039 ; t have one. And then I would take a load and then I would hang around and see if anybody needed a ride back up here. And that was, that was kind of a part of the preacher&#039 ; s role also. MAYFIELD: To, to-- BENFORD: Everybody helped everybody. MAYFIELD: To help when there was an emergency? BENFORD: Yes. And it was kind of a rare thing. If you had an emergency, we, we would help try to maybe call a funeral home for an ambulance. And they would come out sometimes and help out, basically, getting called. But most times, people in cars would be the EMS for, for who we had to get out of there real quick, and all that. And there were several families here that had automobiles. They were, but they were not an abundance. And the preacher always kept a horse or a buggy. And if he, and if we knew you had to go and be at John Sealy, Monday, we would give you time to get you down there. And there was always somebody waiting for a ride back. We wouldn&#039 ; t leave without trying to make sure if anybody was going back to the mainland that they got a ride back. MAYFIELD: You said, in the beginning, you used to keep a horse and buggy? BENFORD: Well, no. Not horse and buggy. There were some folks that had horses and buggies out here, though. I knew a lot of folk with livestock. I always tried to keep some kind of old car. And a big one, so we could put, get a lot of folk in it. But there was some folk here on the mainland that did have wagons, and things like that. And they plowed. They had plows and they farmed out here. This land that is now, you know, like, covered with houses, used to kind of be like a little farmland. The folk who were here first, owned like ten acres, five acres, and stuff like that. And, and see, they, but they, they start selling lots to people and that&#039 ; s how this area built up. They used to raise cotton out here, and stuff like that.  MAYFIELD: What kind of car did you drive? BENFORD: (laughs) Well, I&#039 ; ve always been, um, General Motors. I, I had an old Pontiac. And I drove Pontiacs and I drove Buicks. And the Pontiac and the Buick were big, they were big cars. And I, I needed something that I could always haul a lot of folk in. So, I always tried to buy big car. Because, if you go down and there eight or nine folks trying to get back here, you needed room. And so, I kept an old car like that, and we loaded up and filled it up with people and take them down there and bring them back, and all that. MAYFIELD: Were you the only one that drove the car? Or did someone else? BENFORD: Well, everybody else, just about, was working. Everybody that was able to work, was working. There were a few folk here that were retired. Had their own little hustle, but they were busy. And so, that work fell, generally, on the preacher. The years I served as the EMS for this area, and of course, there was a minister here named F. M. Johnson. He was the pastor at First Baptist Colored. He served as EMS for what we call East Texas City--. MAYFIELD: Okay. BENFORD: --the business part of Texas City. You see, his area, his area was developed. Because this area out here was kind of wild, kind of wild, right? And it was growing. And so, our job would be to try to and be real help to one another. And if I would go down and somebody was from East Texas City needing a ride back here, the bus service was kind of, kind of small, and all that kind of stuff. We would make sure that nobody get left. And if anybody did get left, they&#039 ; d call and they&#039 ; d find a way to go get them. And it worked out good. MAYFIELD: So, there was a bus service?  BENFORD: Oh yes, for just the, the general bus line. See, Texas Bus Lines came out of Houston. And they, they had a depot in Galveston. And of course, but they, you know, they--most times folks tried to operate without the bus lines because they don&#039 ; t want to be ---------(?)(?) at that time, that I said, see I75 was the only route to Galveston. And of course, the bus line would be loaded with people coming to Galveston and going, you know, to and from, and all that. The local people would always try to, have their own way to get there and get back because you never could tell what time you was going to be waited on and things like that. And so, we would just, we, we tried to avoid the bus line itself. It had its own passengers. MAYFIELD: Okay. BENFORD: And these, these folks, most of them were tourists coming to Galveston and leaving Galveston, and all that. MAYFIELD: It was just easier to take, to get transportation with a car from someone in the community.  BENFORD: Yes. Then, see, the car could take you to John Sealy. And see, if you dealt with the bus, you had to kind of, you had to get to the station. Or, if you got on Broadway, and Broadway, Broadway also was a good place. There would be people on Broadway trying to get rides to the mainland. And everybody was nice. If we saw somebody standing in certain areas, we knew they were trying to get a ride. And if they give the thumb, and then we would just stop and ask them where they, where they going. We would bring them back. It was kind of a, a neighbor help neighbor thing. And worked out good. MAYFIELD: That seems to be a theme in that community, in your community. Neighbor helping neighbor. BENFORD: Yeah, the, the, the spirit of help was prevalent in those days. In the fifties. You would help. And by the--and they say it was growing fast, fast, fast, fast. And of course, new things were coming. New things were coming. And of course, these, a lot of these little settlements that they had built the city began to kind of move water in and gas in. And it got so it wasn&#039 ; t so hard to get. When I, when I first came here, like I said, you, you do whatever with one water line. And, and if anybody wanted to tie into it, they could tie into if they got the proper tools and stuff. And they carried it to their place, and all that. That&#039 ; s the way it was, at first. But the city began to come move in and bring in sewage. Texas City did. And bring in gas and things like that. And of course, it, it was mandatory when they brought it that you had to tie into it. But, before that, we had to, we used cesspools. And these were special units that they attached to your house. And they were made to handle human waste and then they had, they had three tanks to it like ---------(?)(?). And of course, it would, it would go off out, out into the wasteland. MAYFIELD: So, the community-- BENFORD: If you got it installed properly. MAYFIELD: You got it installed--you had a proper installation of, of-- BENFORD: Yeah. Now, when I came here, this, this church had had some sewage and all, but it had gone bad. And so, then we had to, one of the first things we had to do here, was get the proper sewage for the church. And so, when we, there was no sewage. So, we had to get a man that understood how to do cesspools. And his name was Leroy Davis. And he used to, undoubtedly, did it for a living. And so, he came in and gave us a plan whereby he could fix the church&#039 ; s sewage. And he did a marvelous job with it. And it served the parsonage, and it served the church. And of course, the waste, it was a good ways from here. And it didn&#039 ; t bother anybody per se, until the city actually came along with sewage. And then we had to get up and get the proper pipes. And they would tie, they tied us into sewage. MAYFIELD: I see. Okay. So, the community is growing, how did you, how did you get your news? BENFORD: We listened to the radio. And Texas City had a paper called The Daily Sun. At one time, they had a paper called the The Daily Sun. And then we had The Galveston News. And we could get the Houston paper. They had The Post and The Chronicle at that time. And you could subscribe to them. So, we had news KGBC at one time, it was very popular, news station. So we listened to KGBC and we took The Daily Sun. And of course, The Sun and The, and The Galveston Daily News were kind of like identical. And so when you got The Sun, you got The Daily News. And of course, we all, everybody would take the Houston paper. And The Post was my favorite paper. And later on, The Chronicle bought The Post. And so, that&#039 ; s where we got our news.  MAYFIELD: Why was The Post your favorite paper? BENFORD: For some reason, I just liked the way they printed the news. And I just, I liked the make-up of it, and all that. I, and I just put it over in the corner here. I really loved it. They, they seemed to tailor the news to me better than The Chronicle. And, and, yeah, I think, well, I know The Chronicle did buy The Post and they combined them.  MAYFIELD: So, The Chronicle, The Houston Chronicle bought The Houston Post? BENFORD: Yes, they bought The Houston Post out. MAYFIELD: What, -- BENFORD: ---------(?)(?). MAYFIELD: What--. Did you have a television set? BENFORD: Finally. After a while and by-and-by. (laughs) MAYFIELD: What&#039 ; s that? (laughs) BENFORD: I said, &quot ; Finally.&quot ; MAYFIELD: What year? BENFORD: I didn&#039 ; t have one at first, when TV first came out. But in a year or so, I got one. And it was Zenith. And it never did wear out. MAYFIELD: You had a Zenith television? BENFORD: I, it was a Zenith TV. It was a named brand. And that TV lasted me for years, and years, and years. (Mayfield laughs) Black and white. And finally, I just stopped using it.  MAYFIELD: It was still working? BENFORD: I got a better one. MAYFIELD: It was still working, but you were, y-- BENFORD: When I, when I stopped fooling with it, it was still showing. And I bought it, it was used. And I paid fifty dollars for it. MAYFIELD: Do you remember the year that you bought it? BENFORD: It had to be in the--, about, fifty--. I bought this, I would say, in fifty-five, fifty-six, something like that. MAYFIELD: Fifty-five, fifty-six? Okay. Is the TV where you got your national news or was that again through the newspapers? BENFORD: We got from both sources. MAYFIELD: From both sources. BENFORD: Yeah, both sources. Yeah, we got it from both sources. And most times, they were in agreement. I think, I think the TV often affected. I mean, the newspapers actually affected what the TV&#039 ; s gave. And then if you had a TV, you&#039 ; d get first news. But they, they all kind of related to one another. And of course, The Chronicle, The Post and The Chronicle, they carried a wider range of news than the Galveston papers carried.  MAYFIELD: I&#039 ; m going to switch gears a little bit and talk a little bit about where you traded. Where you shopped. What were the-- BENFORD: We traded well--. There was a supermarket we, we would call a community store, here. It was called Bogatto&#039 ; s. MAYFIELD: Bogatto&#039 ; s? BENFORD: Yeah. Bogatto&#039 ; s. Bo-gat-to&#039 ; s. MAYFIELD: Bogatto&#039 ; s, okay. BENFORD: And there was two or three brothers, and they had a nice little hook-up in La Marque. And everybody shopped at Bogatto&#039 ; s. You also had an automobile franchise. His brother did. And they sold Fords and Chevys. And they had a repair shop, and things like that. And of course, they sold groceries to everybody. And they also carried credit accounts. And of course, many people, you know, they, they had open credit accounts. They would go and buy their groceries, and they&#039 ; d pay them off at a given date. And they did credit. They did credit. And there was a drug store right beside Bogatto&#039 ; s store. And I think they called it, Sull&#039 ; s. I forget, but think they called it Sull&#039 ; s Drugstore. And of course, they filled all of the medications, and things like that. Kind of like the old community store. And most, and most of your shopping was done there. There might have been one or two dry clothing stores. But most of the time, when folk wanted to shop, they would go to Houston or Galveston.  MAYFIELD: So, sometimes they would-- BENFORD: cars-- MAYFIELD: --they would drive to Houston? BENFORD: Yeah. They had a much wider range of clothes, and shoes, and things, in Galveston. So, you&#039 ; d, but your groceries and things, most times everybody, everybody shopped at, shopped at Bogatto&#039 ; s. MAYFIELD: How, how-- BENFORD: There were other stores around here, of course. And, and folk wanted bargains, and things like that. The Bogattos supplied, you know, the area with foods and meats, and things like that. And they did carry credit. And a lot of, a lot of folks had accounts with them. And they would get their stuff. And if they didn&#039 ; t have any money, they would charge it. And they&#039 ; d pay it on a given date. And that went on forever and forever. MAYFIELD: So, you had a pretty good relationship with your, with your grocer. BENFORD: Oh, yes. Yes, being the pastor of the church, and this church had a wonderful following. We all, all, the people they, they wanted to know us, and we, we had to know them. And so we got along real good.  MAYFIELD: Oh good. BENFORD: And of course, there was a lumberyard here called Tharp&#039 ; s Lumberyard, because he wasn&#039 ; t the only lumberyard here. But Tharp&#039 ; s was kind of a home-grown deal. And there was also another lumberyard here. Let&#039 ; s see, it was called, I think it was Blackwell. And they were right down beside Bogatto&#039 ; s. But there, there was several lumberyards. Lumber was a big seller here because folk were building so. And building houses and things, so. But Tharp&#039 ; s was their community lumberyard, so to speak. It was the one that everybody, the old-timers knew about it. He was very, very accommodating, and all. And he would let you have what you wanted and we would get our things from him. And we&#039 ; d pay him. All of the lumberyards, and places that supplied stuff, would let you have anything you wanted on your word. But, and, and, we, and we would pay them back.  MAYFIELD: What-- BENFORD: And, and that lumberyard is called Blackmond&#039 ; s. MAYFIELD: Blackman. BENFORD: Yeah. It was, it was on high--, right off of Hwy 3. But all of them was like family-like. You could get anything you wanted. MAYFIELD: What was the kind of--, your favorite kind of food to eat? BENFORD: Well, I was country boy, and-- MAYFIELD: (laughs) BENFORD: We just ate the normal stuff, stew meat, crown rolls. (laughs) And there were times that we, of course, shrimp and fish were big deals. But most of the time, we caught our own fish. Before the water got polluted, you could almost go anywhere there was water and catch, catch fish at ease. When I first came here, you could catch wonderful fish. Almost anywhere you saw water, but as, as pollution grows well, then the fish got, they got further and further away from us. But fish, crab, the seafood area was a very popular thing with the local folk. And of course, gumbo was kind of a household word, and things like that. Now, there were some folks who came in, who would not necessarily claim the gumbo, and they brought their things. The folk came a good ways back from this place, they liked chili and stews, and things like that. And then some folks did a lot of hunting. Rabbits and things like that. And deer in their seasonal seasons. And of course, wildlife, ducks and things had their certain seasons. And of course, the old-timers, here, they would, they took a lot of pleasure killing Thanksgiving goose and a Christmas goose. And of course, the, as the weather would change, and they would come in, coming from the north, they would come in here. And they would be flying low. But these, these old-timers that lived here, they would be, they would be waiting on them. And of course, they, they had some special guns that were called Long Toms. These were shotguns that had extra, extra-long barrels. And then, but the old-timers around here, they could blow them out of the sky. Because when they come in, they&#039 ; d come in flying low. And you could hear, you&#039 ; d think sometimes they&#039 ; d declared war around here. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BENFORD: And because they&#039 ; d be popping them. And of course, sometime they&#039 ; d hit them here and they&#039 ; d like pull them out before they fell. And then you had to go locate them and get them, and things like that. And of course, the food you were raised on, you, we got that. But the seafood has always been an attraction in this area. And of course, seafoods are the fish, the crabs, the gumbo. Now, crawfish was not as popular then as it is now. Because they had the crabs. Now, of course, that was what we had. And then that, there was things we were raised on in our own areas. And we, we, we kept our life too. We liked soul food, like pig feet, chitlins, hog heads, hog heads. There were those who knew how to fix those things in a special way. MAYFIELD: Would you have-- BENFORD: Very tasty. MAYFIELD: Would you have hog heads throughout the year, potentially, or-- BENFORD: Well, no. It was, most time, for hog heads, it would be, like for Christmas or Thanksgiving area. And they had a deal, some folk would boil them and just eat them, like on New Year&#039 ; s Day. But they also had a deal they called hoghead [hogshead] cheese. They had a way of boiling the hog&#039 ; s head and getting all the meat, skin it, and they would, um, fix it and square it off like cheese. And they&#039 ; d add vinegar in it, and it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s just tasty. It&#039 ; s tasty. But you had to have skills to do it. But the old folks knew how to do it, easy. You sure don&#039 ; t see that, that kind of hoghead [hogshead]cheese now. There&#039 ; s still a few people that may know how to do it. Older folk, they could do it like you take candy from a baby. MAYFIELD: Was it hog cheese, you said? BENFORD: No. It&#039 ; s the, it was the whole head. As a matter of fact, there used to be a time at the, like, at the New Year&#039 ; s, everybody, there&#039 ; s an old custom that you eat pork and black-eyed peas. And our stores would stock hog heads. And they&#039 ; d have them, they&#039 ; d have them all around. And folk would go in and buy the whole head. they&#039 ; d bring it back and then they would boil it and do to it whatever they wanted to do with it. The head of a hog is very, very tasty if you know how to fix it. And they just, and some folk just enjoy eating the head. But, then some folk take the head and boil them and get all of the meat from off of them, then they would make what we call the hoghead [hogshead] cheese. And it was very tasty. MAYFIELD: Hmm. BENFORD: But that was a delicacy. You, they wouldn&#039 ; t pull that until like at the end of the year.  MAYFIELD: I see. BENFORD: New Year&#039 ; s Day and during that season. MAYFIELD: So, did you have family meals together? BENFORD: Oh, yes, yes. That was a common thing back in those days. Most families ate at least one meal together. Even though that was, you know, the great labor rush and scheduling, all kinds of things. But most family&#039 ; s kind of managed to eat together in the evening. The evening meal would be a family meal.  MAYFIELD: Who would, who would be there to eat dinner with you? BENFORD: When I first came here, I was single. I wasn&#039 ; t married, so I didn&#039 ; t have a family. And that freed me to do a lot of stuff ---------(?)(?) that I was doing. Later on, I got married. And of course, it was just me and my wife. And sometime family, family would come. Friends. And there were people that we knew didn&#039 ; t fare well, so we&#039 ; d always come make sure they had a portion, you know, and all that. Plus, I got a lot of invitations, being the pastor of the church. I had a lot of invitations out for special luncheons and things like that. So, eating never was a problem with me. And but I wasn&#039 ; t very large. And so, I wasn&#039 ; t no heavy eater, but I did eat, I did eat faithfully. MAYFIELD: (laughs) Yes. You&#039 ; re the pastor, of course. I imagine that the church was an important influence on your family. BENFORD: Well, I, I was a committed pastor, but I was also the community leader. And of course, any issue that arose in this community, it got my attention first, because everybody knew that I&#039 ; d go to the bat for them and help solve it. And get things done. And so, I stayed real busy. Sometimes, day and night. And people freely brought their problems to me. I&#039 ; ve been here seventy years, and at the same time, the winds of freedom had begun to blow. And our people started changing their visions, and things like that. And of course, the Martin Luther King begun to kind of pushing for more civil rights and, and equal citizenship for people. And so I got in--, I was very much involved in that. And leading folk and that our people, we had, we, we, we had to get them mobilized so they could become a voting power even though they were a, a minority. And of course, a lot of them were not used to that because they came out of neighborhoods where Blacks didn&#039 ; t vote at all. So, we had to train them that under this new regime, you&#039 ; re going to have to put out. But, we got together and get with the people that we think can do us the most good, and support them. And so, that was quite an ordeal. But the people wouldn&#039 ; t listen. And we ultimately got the mainland into a powerhouse. Now, Galveston already had that. They already had that. But we gradually began to grow so and grow so. And then people, different people had moved here and some of them had an appetite for freedom, and for recognition, and first-class citizenship. With our leadership, my leadership, and other pastors, we began to kind of mobilize, and, and get city to try to do some things to help our people, Black people rise, you know, on a political level. And we did that in two ways. We worked with labor. You know, we find what labor wanted, and work with them. And whoever they thought was good for us, we&#039 ; d, we&#039 ; d mold them. Long before we could, we could put anybody Black in office, we would have labor put in office whoever they thought was best for labor. And of course, at that time, the Kempners in Galveston were powerful people. And then of course, when the Kempners gave up the area, he was, he was the representative of the area, Jack Brooks became the representative for this area, Beaumont and La Marque and all that area and we began to work with him. And he was a great political leader and he knew how to work with people. And so, we kind of mobilized out here on the mainland. And we had a precinct here called precinct thirty-eight. No, thirty--, yes, thirty-eight. I believe, no, thirty-six, thirty-six. Because thirty-seven was my area. And about thirty-six had thirty-eight hundred registered voters in it. Blacks. And we had a man named Johnnie Henderson. And he was a lay person, but he had a thirst for freedom and growth and the Black community and all that. And he would work very hard. And he did work very hard to keep us mobilized. And he also worked with labor and lined up behind whatever labor thought was best for us. And then, he had an appetite to see justice done. At that time, if a Black got fired, or something like that, there was nobody to maybe, you know, go to the bat for him, or at least get him heard. And so, Johnnie took it upon himself to form a committee. And I was on it. So, if somebody did get laid off, or fired, or had some misunderstanding, we would go and we would talk with whoever was in charge of the job. And we would try to show the side of the person that we felt had not been treated right. And it became a very successful thing. And we helped good, a lot of folk get their jobs back, and things like that. That was also in our favor. And Johnnie was so good at this kind of a thing until labor kind of adapted him and they hired him, to kind of I guess, just kind of do those kinds of things. And of course, later on, Austin, the AFL-CIO headquarters in Austin. They hired him as a liaison worker to go anywhere they would send him to deal with trouble and problems, and all that. And so, he worked with the city. And we went to the mayor and asked the mayor to give him a furlough and try it for a year. If he couldn&#039 ; t do it, to give him his job back. And of course, Emmett Lowry was mayor then and he agreed. And so, Johnnie did get the job and he became excellent at that. As a matter of fact, there&#039 ; s a building down there, named after Johnnie. They built it in memory of him. Yeah, right across from La Marque High School. That court building, there, is named after Johnnie Henderson, right across from La Marque High School. It&#039 ; s on the left-hand side and La Marque High School is on the right-hand side. They built that building in memory of him. And of course, he worked through the preachers. And of course, I was his, right-hand man. Anything he wanted to do, he&#039 ; d, he&#039 ; d bring to the preachers, and we would talk about it and get behind him. And that made him very effective. And of course, you, we don&#039 ; t hear his name much, because so many folk are not aware of the many things we accomplished back in those days. But that building is named after him. MAYFIELD: Was Mr. Henderson the person in charge of trying to get Mainland Community College, the College of the Mainland, um, here in-- BENFORD: --we were, what happened was, when they, when Galveston voted to have a junior college, everybody was for it, and we were tickled pink to get it, and we all supported it. But at the same time, we recognized that the Galveston Community College was not going to be able to handle the mainland. And so, then labor, and Johnnie, and myself, we said, &quot ; We can&#039 ; t depend on Galveston.&quot ; They didn&#039 ; t have enough room for us and them. So, then we launched a moment to put College of the Mainland where it is right now. And that was no easy job, because at that time, folk were scared of taxes, and, and all that kind of thing. So, we had to sell our people, especially the Black folk, on the idea that we need our own junior college. And Johnnie Henderson, and myself, and Black ministers, we played a major role in getting folk to vote the bond for the college. Johnnie Henderson. MAYFIELD: So, you, you mentioned voting. Do you remember the first year you voted? BENFORD: Well, let me see, let me see. Now, there never was a law in Texas enforced where Blacks could not vote. Now, if it&#039 ; s, if, if, if it was so, I, I never heard of it. In Galveston, at one time, was known as the most liberal city in Texas for, you know, Blacks and their rights. And so, even though voting wasn&#039 ; t a popular thing with most Blacks, because most Blacks thought they couldn&#039 ; t vote. And of course, at one time, you had to pay a poll tax to vote. You had to pay a dollar and seventy-five cents. That was the only thing about Texas voting rights, back in those days, you had to buy a poll tax and it cost one dollar and seventy-five cents. And if you had the poll tax, wasn&#039 ; t nobody could tell you that you couldn&#039 ; t vote. My grandmother voted in the thirties. My grandmother, I said, &quot ; She was a Choctaw Indian.&quot ; And, and, but somebody taught them what their rights were and she, as, as she couldn&#039 ; t read and write. But she understood politics and things. And she always wanted and did exercise her right to vote, back in the thirties. And she would do things and make her change and she would buy her poll tax and um, and we would have to go with her down to the courthouse. We were in Vern--, in Vernon, Texas, where I was reared. Um, and she would vote. And so then, so, we knew about voting. And when we came here in Galveston County, we encouraged voting and, we, they, they, they finally abolished the poll tax. And so, you had to register to vote. And I would say my first experience with voting was, eh, was, it was in, in, the early fifties. In the early fifties, we started encouraging and urging folk to register to vote. And it became a very popular thing. And to my knowledge, Texas had never been a state that actually denied Black people the right to vote. But they did have a poll tax, and of course, that was the only problem about it. Some of our folk just couldn&#039 ; t afford it, you know. So, they didn&#039 ; t bother with it. But after they outlawed the poll tax, then we all got behind it a hundred percent. MAYFIELD: So, how would you inform people about voting? I heard that you had a megaphone. BENFORD: We would, we would do this. We would find out the people that labor thought was best for working people. MAYFIELD: I see. BENFORD: And every year, and we are still doing it, I got a one this year, we would make out a list of the folk that labor would be encouraging the working folk to vote for. And we would make, I had a mimeograph machine, and I&#039 ; m making some right now, to vote the slate that labor thought was best for us. And of course, that, that&#039 ; s, that was on the state and national level, you know, and things like that. And then there were local folk that they thought was best for us. Mayors, commissioners. And we would print these, and give these to our folk, and we would have people at the polls passing them out to folk who would come and let them know who we thought would do us the most good. And we still do that. As a matter of fact, I got one here now. I&#039 ; m making some and we get them out through the Black Ministers Alliance. The Black Ministers Alliance. And we&#039 ; ve always followed labor&#039 ; s cue on who was best for us because all of our folk work for a living. And we still do it. MAYFIELD: So-- BENFORD: And even now, I&#039 ; ll make up a list of, a recommended list of people to recommend to people to vote for until I go by and, and talk with labor, and I get their slate. And we take their slate and we kind of line it up. And then, we also got our local slate, mayor, the mayor, commissioners, and the county people. And that&#039 ; s the way we do that.  MAYFIELD: Okay.  BENFORD: That&#039 ; s what we do. MAYFIELD: So, you, you get behind the labor groups that really support the community--. BENFORD: --Yes. We want to work together. We&#039 ; ve always worked together. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BENFORD: And then, finally, we started getting a few people involved. And they&#039 ; d run. And labor has always been very kind to anybody we thought that could serve. And we have elected people in Galveston County, in the, uh, boy, we&#039 ; ve had great success here. We&#039 ; ve had great success, even elected Blacks for office here. MAYFIELD: Having, having Blacks in the city government, then. BENFORD: Yes. And, county-wise. And then, we, we used to run folk for city commissioners, but everything was at-large. We never could win anything. We&#039 ; d get a lot of votes, but we couldn&#039 ; t beat nobody because we were a minority. So, finally, we got the, we decided to file suit and we got them to draw district lines, so we would have a chance. And we started putting people in. MAYFIELD: I see. BENFORD: And that same thing applied to the school board. There was a time that there was nobody, no Blacks on the school board at, at all. And, of course, this was in La Marque, and that&#039 ; s, and that&#039 ; s, I&#039 ; m in La Marque district. And of course, then we went to work. And we put a Black man on the school board. Because the, the Black folks were in a majority in the La Marque district. Years ago, when it was unheard of. MAYFIELD: Do you remember what year that was? BENFORD: I don&#039 ; t. I&#039 ; d have to get the record. His name was George K. Drake. Dr. George K. Drake. He was the first Black man to be elected to a school board. Maybe he was the first to serve in Texas. George K. Drake. MAYFIELD: Mr. Drake. BENFORD: Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: So, I would imagine that, um, the pastors along with the, the labor representatives were sort of the more important people in your community, related to-- BENFORD: They still are. MAYFIELD: --civil rights. BENFORD: They still are.  MAYFIELD: They still are. BENFORD: They still are. Now, understand, we had an excellent group of men. Black. And they followed leadership. And of course, I did the leading. I&#039 ; m the oldest pastor. They say, active pastor in the world, at one church. And the World Book of Geniuses, whatever you call it. They are looking that up. I&#039 ; ve been here, seventy years. MAYFIELD: The-- BENFORD: And of course, yeah. And of course, -- MAYFIELD: The World&#039 ; s Record. BENFORD: We have always combined with labor. And worked with the folks that can help us. And we&#039 ; ve got some great things done. And, you need to know the people, the Black people, that have served in Galveston County, in county offices, and city offices, and things that we actually put in there. MAYFIELD: Can you name some of them. I&#039 ; m, I know that you mentioned Mr. Henderson. You mentioned Jack Brooks, but who can you name--and you, can you name other individuals? BENFORD: Yes. Well, now, T. B. Armstrong of Galveston. He was a real estate man and a druggist. And he, I think might have been the first Black city commissioner in Galveston. And of course, in all the county-wise level we&#039 ; ve had Wayne Johnson. How is Wayne? He was the first Black county commissioner. And then we had Gerald Burkes. He was the first Black treasurer for Galveston County. And we had, oh my gosh, that uh, I think her name, Sophonia Thompson. She was city tax assessor. We, I can get those things, those names for you. And then, I mean, they actually served in this county. And those facts are being suppressed. You see, when, when the, there was a time that we handled our own Juneteenth. But now a crowd got in office, and they sort of took that out of our hands and they, and so then, they got their agenda. And when they got their agenda, they don&#039 ; t point out the accomplishments of Blacks in this area. And they don&#039 ; t build the grassroots folks. I&#039 ; m grassroots. There&#039 ; s not a lot of us, but I&#039 ; m grassroots. And so, we don&#039 ; t get a chance to even tell our folk that, you know, who they are, and what they&#039 ; ve done. And how many elections they&#039 ; ve decided for precinct thirty-six for, for state and you know, county-wide folk, and all that stuff. And so, they invite, they invite people here that don&#039 ; t even know us. And they don&#039 ; t even put us on a program for the parade, or nothing like that. So, I don&#039 ; t fool with it. And they come, and they, they&#039 ; ll even not talk about it. Because we about, we think about kind of taking it back. And our folk are--. The folk that are in Galveston County now are not aware of what has been done already by Blacks, and labor, and other good white people working with us, and what we&#039 ; ve done already. And so, don&#039 ; t, don&#039 ; t nobody mention it. And folks being invited don&#039 ; t even know it. MAYFIELD: So-- BENFORD: I&#039 ; ve been kind of silent in that area. And in those areas, but we have done some great things in Galveston County. MAYFIELD: Could you share some? BENFORD: Ma&#039 ; am? MAYFIELD: Could you share some stories? BENFORD: I brought Head Start to Galveston County. I brought government Head Start to Galveston County. I was in Austin, Texas at a state convention. It was kind of a fall day, and a man, his name was Professor Calhoun. And he said, he, he asked if I would like to ride out and see his daycare. And I wasn&#039 ; t doing anything. And I said, &quot ; Yeah, I&#039 ; ll ride.&quot ; So, I rode out with him, and he had two beautiful buildings. And uh, had little boys and girls in there. And, and they called it daycare. Now, they had daycare in Galveston, but it was ran by the rich white ladies and things. So, the maids and things, had somewhere to raise their children, they had to have, you know, garage sales, and somebody would donate this. And you know, there was always a question about the funds to pay the staffs and all that. The had one, but the funds was not sure. So, this man explained to me that this, this daycare was sponsored by the government. See, when civil rights broke loose, the government turned loose a whole lot of programs for Black people. And they had a book they called a civil rights bible, showing you all the programs that were available to us since they declared, you know, the Civil Rights Act. So, this Mr. Calhoun, he said, &quot ; You can have one of these.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I can get this?&quot ; And he said, &quot ; Yeah, and it won&#039 ; t cost the community nothing.&quot ; They had a thing called C-A-C, Community Action Council, where they gave, they gave out millions of dollars to every area to have things that you didn&#039 ; t have before. And of course, the government sponsored Head Start was in this book, and you had to write a proposal. And that was quite a job for, if you didn&#039 ; t know what you were doing. And for, and ask for the money, and you&#039 ; d explain what your light bill cost, what your staff would cost, what your building would cost, and all that kind of stuff, you know, food, and all that, you know. And they&#039 ; d give you a grant for so many, a hundred, you know, a million or whatever you needed. If they approved it, you&#039 ; d get that and then you were bound by what the, what your budget called for. So, he explained it to me as to how this operated.  Now, back home, here in Galveston, we were struggling. And everybody would chip in, and we&#039 ; d try to make sure we had enough money to, you know, to take care of the boys and girls. And that was only in Galveston County. I mean, in Galveston itself, the seat of Galveston. So then, I had been a part of CAC, and so, when I got this information from him, I brought it back to Galveston, here. And so, I told them about it. And they laughed. They had never heard of that. I mean, nobody had heard of it. And they thought I was off my rocker. I had a lady in my church. Her name was Mary Crowder. So, we wrote Washington, D.C. And we asked for this book that had all the programs that explained to us what we were entitled to since civil rights had been declared. And we found it. And sure enough, they had a program designed called uh, it came under the heading of CAC, and of course, there was an organization in Galveston called Central Day Care. And these were these ladies, Miss Thompson, Nora Thompson, and all that crowd, and the Kempner&#039 ; s, and it was four or five powerful women, you know, wives of rich guys in Galveston. And they sponsored that. And they raised funds themselves. And they always got it done, but it was quite a task. So, when I came back and told them that, I said, &quot ; You all don&#039 ; t have to do that no more.&quot ; I said, &quot ; The government is.&quot ; I said, &quot ; We can get this, and the government will send us a budget covering the whole year.&quot ; We only had one in Galveston. And so, they kind of brushed it off. And so, then they told me in so many words, --well said, if that can be done, you you know, you work it out and we&#039 ; ll look at it. In the meantime, when we saw it in this book, we knew it was true. And Mary Crowder, she was a graduate of Prairie View College. And she was a very, very smart lady. And she didn&#039 ; t have nothing to do but just, you know, study, and that good thing. So, we started to really kind of work on it. And we got the confirmation this program was a reality and it could be done. So, then, the Galveston people, they kind of got interested in it a little bit. And nobody knew how to write a government proposal.  MAYFIELD: Oh. BENFORD: Nobody knew how. They got folk that do it now for a living. But this was in the early beginning. So, then, they fi--, they found a lady, --------(?)(?) I can&#039 ; t recall her name, but she had red hair. I can&#039 ; t pronounce her name now. She took the task of writing the first proposal for Galveston County for government sponsored Head Start. And so, she didn&#039 ; t really know much about it either. And she worked with it, and she worked with it, and she worked with it, and she worked with it, and finally, she just actually left it alone. But Miss Crowder, Mary Crowder, she was Black, she kept on fooling with it, and she finally caught the hang of it. And we had a retired teacher here, named Ruth Shannon Hicks. She taught school for, for La Marque High, for Lincoln High School. She had retired and she came and she joined Miss Crowder in trying to put this proposal together. And they worked, and they worked, and they worked, and they worked, and they worked. And finally, they got everything they needed to offer a proposal to have government sponsored Head Start in Galveston County. And of course, it was for--, well, it, it would be for the county. They only had one, they only had one in Galveston that, that they sponsored. And of course, the one that they proposed, it was going to be for Galveston, Texas City, uh, let&#039 ; s see, Dickinson. It would be four all together. And they wrote this proposal. And of course, Galveston would have the most kids. You could have fifty kids in each one, but Galveston would have, I think, about ninety-six. They had double the amount. But, in the meantime, the Galveston people wanted to put all the centers in Galveston. And of course, that wasn&#039 ; t in good taste. And because it came out of Rising Star Church, they put my name on it. And of course, they, and so they said, that if, if I didn&#039 ; t sign it, they couldn&#039 ; t get it like that, because we were trying to get one in, in La Marque and, and what we call La Marque. And we were trying to get one in Hitchcock. And one in Dickinson, you know. And of course, one in Galveston, also. We didn&#039 ; t mind them having the biggest one. And so, I was told not to sign it and they couldn&#039 ; t get it. So, when they found they couldn&#039 ; t get it, we just put them all in Galveston. Then they came back, and we agreed that we were going to have one here, too. And we could have one in Dickinson. And could have one in Hitchcock. There were four cities. Four, including Galveston, would have one. And of course, that, that meant a location, and a place, and all that. And of course, I gave the Rising Star Church, this church we are at right now, as an in-kind donation for a school. And that meant that all the rent, and all that kind of stuff, that we would pay for it. I mean, you, we wouldn&#039 ; t charge them for it, because they, they had to be, independent. They had to pay their rent, utilities, you know, and do their own repairs. But I gave this church as an in-kind donation and that freed up more money to pay teachers with, and things like that. MAYFIELD: I see. BENFORD: And ultimately, we got one here. And it stayed here, fourteen years. And they got put in other places, locations. And of course, I got off the CAC board and I began to work with Central Daycare, the original one they had in Galveston. And served, I served as a board member. And this program involved parents. If you had a child in school, you had to come to faculty meetings, and you, you, they, they made the parents come and study and do things. And it was a--, and it&#039 ; s still a great program. They aren&#039 ; t doing it like they used to, though. But you couldn&#039 ; t have a child in daycare if you, if the parent, if you didn&#039 ; t attend, and study, and learn other things to help improve your child also. And that program worked here, successfully, for fourteen years.  MAYFIELD: That&#039 ; s a, amazing accomplishment. BENFORD: Yeah. And of course, but ultimately, the budget got so big, until they, we became an object of envy. So, CAC wanted to take over the Central Daycare. And they got a, they got a duration(??) and fooled around, and fooled around, fooled around, and, and chop, they kept chopping us. And finally, they jumped, jumped on us big time. And we had a great big battle, and all that kind of stuff. And they got it away from us. And then the school district saw something in it also. And so then, ultimately, they kind of took it away from CAC and now the schools get that money. MAYFIELD: Hmm. BENFORD: They sure do. I don&#039 ; t keep up with it no more, once they took it away from us and all. But I brought it here. And of course, I know the folks, and, and the people that are using it, they don&#039 ; t even know how it got here. And had it not been for Miss Mary Crowder and Ruth Shannon Hicks, and of course that first lady, she did a great job, but she just didn&#039 ; t know what she was doing. And she, yeah, she just finally quit. But Miss Shannon and Miss Crowder put that proposal together and got it like they wanted. And then we gave it to Miss Kempner and that crowd. They sent it to Washington, D.C., and of course, at that time, she, uh, their folk worked there. Kempner, and Jack Brooks, and all of them. And that thing passed with flying colors. And we got that grant and they been getting it ever since. Now CAC don&#039 ; t have it anymore. It&#039 ; s now under the schools. The independent school district got it. And they get all the money, but they don&#039 ; t make the folk do what they ought to do. They just take it and they just do. They carry it on, but they, the parents don&#039 ; t be involved. The kids be involved in it. And to me, that was a, and still is, one of my greatest accomplishments here. MAYFIELD: That was going to be one of my questions, actually. BENFORD: Huh? MAYFIELD: That was going to be one of my questions, actually. BENFORD: Yes, now, the folks don&#039 ; t know how they got it. You know, but that&#039 ; s how it got here. I brought it here and everybody thought it was a joke at first. Till they read it in that book. And then, then, and then they sent me a pamphlet called Washington, D.C., &quot ; The Rights of The Poor&quot ; . I still got some. I just got to locate them because it&#039 ; s been so many years. But I&#039 ; ve made, and everywhere would I go to talk for different things, I gave everybody a copy of what they said in Washington, D.C., the poor were entitled to. I&#039 ; m going to go back and dig up one of them things. MAYFIELD: Yeah, that would be, -- BENFORD: I&#039 ; m going to dig up one. I know we got them. I know we got them-- MAYFIELD: --interesting. BENFORD: --because I always kept them, and down through the years and sometimes now when I go into a barrio or something. I pass everybody a copy out. And it come, it came from Washington, D.C., in the early stages of the civil rights and they tell everybody what the poor are entitled to do. MAYFIELD: Did-- BENFORD: And it tells, it gives our rights as poor. I am going to go to work on that and get them located. MAYFIELD: What about the civil rights bible? BENFORD: Ma&#039 ; am? MAYFIELD: What about the civil rights bible? Do you still have it? BENFORD: Well, now that, I&#039 ; m sure it&#039 ; s still in existence. MAYFIELD: Hmm. I&#039 ; m going to have to-- BENFORD: I&#039 ; m sure it&#039 ; s still in existence. And of course, if we dig because it&#039 ; s been many, many years ago. We probably might can locate the one we had here. And of course, there were a world of programs that they put in existence. There used to be a time that the College of the Mainland ran bus services for boys and girls, just like the schools do. And they picked up boys and girls who were enrolled and carried them to school and brought them back home. There were three buses, free transportation to anybody going to the College of the Mainland. MAYFIELD: So, anybody going to school at The College of the Mainland had free bus service. BENFORD: Back in those days, see, back in those days, see folk didn&#039 ; t have transportation. They bought, they had transportation to pick boys and girls up, carry them to College of the Mainland, bring them back home at no, at no, no charge. MAYFIELD: So, I want to ask you a little bit about, again, these civil rights. We were sort of touching on that. And I was curious, who was the important Black national figures at the time? BENFORD: Okay, but please repeat that, so, I can get it. MAYFIELD: Who were the important Black national figures at the time? BENFORD: At this time? MAYFIELD: Yeah, during the civil rights movement. BENFORD: Well, we got a variety. Let me see. It&#039 ; s kind of hard. It&#039 ; s kind of hard because Jesse Jackson was our man. He has Parkinson&#039 ; s Disease and he&#039 ; s not active. He&#039 ; s not a speaker. He was a great--, I had him here twice. MAYFIELD: Jesse Jackson? BENFORD: Jesse Jackson&#039 ; s been to this church. He has spoken two times at this church. And it was and they had to have police to hold the folks back. He&#039 ; s been here to me. I&#039 ; d call him right now, and, and he&#039 ; ll talk to me. He was a true-blue civil rights worker. I didn&#039 ; t never know much about Al Sharpton. I understand he seems to me, he&#039 ; s active and got his health and he&#039 ; s still kind of, you know, uh, going and all. But I do think that Jesse Jackson is doing more on accident than he&#039 ; s doing on purpose. And they both doing good. But Jesse, physically, is kind of out of it. But even now, Jesse Jackson is working with big corporations and getting them to allow our people to take, change and develop things and make things go. And one notable thing that he did, Jesse Jackson did for us, he got the Coca-Cola Bottling Company to allow Blacks to take franchises and work them and develop them. And the Coca-Cola Bottling Company did do it. And right now, in Florida, the state of Florida, the cokes that are made in the state of Florida? MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BENFORD: That organization is under the chain of, of five Black people. And because these are, these are boys that finished Harvard, and things like that. They know what they&#039 ; re doing. And they&#039 ; re doing great works. And that&#039 ; s the kind of work he&#039 ; s doing now. He&#039 ; s trying to fix ways so that Blacks can, deserving Blacks, qualifying Blacks, can get in on those kinds of things.  MAYFIELD: So, back in the day, Jesse Jackson was an important speaker for the-- BENFORD: Well, -- MAYFIELD: --for the Civil Rights Movement? BENFORD: He was the uh, after Dr. King died, Jesse Jackson, did carry the ball. And of course, even now, even though he has a physical ailment, he&#039 ; s still a powerful factor in the civil rights movement. And of course, Al Sharpton became a voice. I am not aware of any of the, uh, any programs he is working that will do us any good. But he is a voice of protest against injustice and things like that. And of course, I&#039 ; m sure there are other people that are playing roles. And we got some attorneys and that are playing roles and right now, I would not say there was a--. I would not know the peak of the best we have to go. I know that there are a lot of voices that are crying for us and all. But I guess I would have to say Al Sharpton, he does a great job of, you know, revealing and uncovering, and all that. MAYFIELD: He&#039 ; s doing that now. That Al Sharpton. BENFORD: Yeah, right now. And he has a NASA TV program and that gives him a lot of coverage and all. And so, I do listen at him. I do listen at him, and all. MAYFIELD: How was it? Can you tell me what it was like being African American in Texas City at the time of segregation? BENFORD: Oh, I. You, you, where was the what now? MAYFIELD: Can you tell me what it was like being African American at the time of segregation in Texas City? BENFORD: At the time of segregation, we were a subject. We had no, no real legal rights. We were at the mercy of the boards, and all of them. There was none of us on the boards. If we wanted something done, we would have to appeal to somebody on the board that would take our case and do something with it. And of course, there was always the Black school principals. And of course, they would always try to hire a school principal that would kind of dance by their music and wouldn&#039 ; t carry things too far. He knew how far to carry things, and of course, we had a man here named P. S. Simms. And he became the foremost Black school principal for La Marque High, for La Marque Colored School. They had a high school and La Marque High School and La Marque Colored School. And he stayed here for years, and of course, the educational system sort of, kind of, built around him. But he was, maybe sheepish-like. And he wasn&#039 ; t aggressive. And he always found a way to get along. And there were some that didn&#039 ; t even like his mannerism. Now, when I came here, he was here. And of course, I worked with him. And I stood by him. And I served him just like I served Johnnie Henderson. And that was a time when I had great re--. The Black preacher had great rapport in the schools. They had chapel twice a week. And they would invite one of us to come. And we&#039 ; d hold the prayer and things like that. And we would, and we talked to the boys and girls about morals, and staying out of trouble, and things like that. And of course, we didn&#039 ; t need it. And we always had the baccalaureate service. That&#039 ; s when they, that&#039 ; s when they finished. And we would bring in somebody that could motivate, and preachers, inspire. And we&#039 ; d have a worship service. We still have it. We still have it. We still have it. I don&#039 ; t think we had it this year, though. This is the first year, I&#039 ; ve been here seventy years, because of the pandemic. I don&#039 ; t, we, we didn&#039 ; t have anything. Had the year before that. And we still carry that on. But that was, uh, they, but they controlled the schools through the principals and of course, we had a, we had a Black Ministers Union here. MAYFIELD: Was that con-- BENFORD: It was called--it was called-- MAYFIELD: Was that called the Black Coalition of Pastors? BENFORD: Ma&#039 ; am? MYAFIELD: Was that called the Coalition of Pastors? BENFORD: Are you asking me did the, uh, were they pastors? Were we the ones that dealt with the school board? MAYFIELD: Yeah, did, so, you had the-- BENFORD: Yeah, we dealt with the Black pastors and community, the community leaders, outspoken people who had intellect and all that, and retired teachers. We would find committees and ways to go forward and most times a Black pastor would lay out the problems. And then they&#039 ; d work with them, and in most cases, things would work out almost to what we wanted. Locally, and all that. We tried not to fuss, and yet we did have a lot of dog fights, here, in this district, on a lot of things. Now, I served on the committee, and I&#039 ; m proud of this also, to integrate Texas City High School and the community, and the La Marque High School and the community. And the amazing thing is, that Texas City integrated before La Marque did. I was in La Marque High School district and we-- (noise interference) We got a lot of things done. But Texas City actually integrated on their own. And they had seven men on the committee. I was the only Black on the committee to integrate Texas City High School. And they asked me to come. And there was a doctor. His name was Dr. Green. He was a surgeon. And he, that&#039 ; s all I can remember right now. He was on the committee. And they were very, very kind to me. And this, these were tedious times. But nobody ever intimidated me. Nobody ever spoke down to me. And I was allowed to express myself as I wanted to. And so then, they called me in and they asked me, should they integrate Booker T. Washington, that was the Texas City High School with the La Marque High, uh, La Marque High, I mean Texas City High School. And I told them yes because Booker T. Washington School wasn&#039 ; t big as a barn. But they had great spirit and things like that. And I said, &quot ; There&#039 ; s no way in the world they can have high school there in that small space.&quot ; And, and they agreed. They said, &quot ; Well, we thought so.&quot ; And they said, &quot ; Now, what we going to do with the faculty?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well&quot ; , I said, &quot ; you need to find ways to work Blacks in on your faculty. Because, when Black children look up, they need to see a Black face.&quot ; They need to know there&#039 ; s somebody there that knows me, at least. I said, &quot ; Y&#039 ; all can&#039 ; t go bringing folks from other places they don&#039 ; t even know and that don&#039 ; t know them.&quot ; You know and do away with the Black instructors and all. And of course, there were times, there was a time that, that they felt like that maybe some of the Black instructors were not all together qualified to teach. And I said, &quot ; Well&quot ; , I said, &quot ; I think you&#039 ; re wrong about that.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Now, everybody you see, everybody you see in a Black school that&#039 ; s teaching, pretty much, they do a good job.&quot ; And so, they got over that. I said, &quot ; Those, those people need to be brought.&quot ; I said, &quot ; And, and boys and girls need to just see somebody that they know, in school.&quot ; And so, they worked it out. And they, and there was a, uh, they had a principal over there. (laughs), hot dog his name is gone from my mind now, as well as I knew it. He was principal of Booker T. Washington High School. And they gave him a job. He wasn&#039 ; t a principal, but he was kind of over something, you know, that kind of had to do with integration. Oh, God, I&#039 ; d like to recall his name. It will come to me in a minute. But and they worked them all in. And I said, &quot ; Nah&quot ; , it just wouldn&#039 ; t do to just for you to go eliminate the Black faculty, and expect our boys and girls come over there and be comfortable. They need just to see somebody they can smile at and that know them. And so they integrated. And they had also integrated the drug stores, the theaters. We did it all at the same time. Now, they had some protesters and things like that, and some little things, but they hadn&#039 ; t done it. But when we did it and of course, when we, and I endorsed it, and all that. Texas City actually integrated the schools and all their open places. MAYFIELD: So, Texas City by itself, integrated pretty quickly. BENFORD: Yes, they did. And they, and there was no controversy. I mean, they agreed to do this. MAYFIELD: Why do you think so? BENFORD: Without a fight. See, there was, now, we all knew they were reserved, they were, ahhhmmm, now, we all knew that. And we never expected them to integrate before La Marque.  MAYFIELD: Who, what-- BENFORD: Because we had one, at one time, we&#039 ; d had a Black school where only in La Marque, and a thing like that. And then, and then, then we were active in affairs over the years. But Texas City integrated before La Marque did.  MAYFIELD: Why, why do you think-- BENFORD: And it went through as smooth as butter. MAYFIELD: Why, why do you think that happened? BENFORD: Well, they started out right. They got ; they asked me to be on the committee. And because, I&#039 ; ve been, I&#039 ; ve, I&#039 ; ve been very active in this commu--, in this community. Everybody in that town, in this town, at that time, knew me and they knew I knew what I was doing. We, and we had had so many successful things to happen and so, uh, and when I told the Black community that this is fair and equal, we got do our part and they got to do their part. And of course, if we don&#039 ; t do our part, they going to squeal. And if they don&#039 ; t do their part by us, we going to squeal. And they knew it. And that, and, and that, and that to my knowledge, there&#039 ; s never been any complaint about how Texas City integrated schools, and the lunch counters, and everything else. All that stuff became legit and worked out smooth. And of course, I knew those men, the only one I can recall was Dr. Green. Dr. Green&#039 ; s passed away too. But I served on it and hammered it out. MAYFIELD: Were there any people fighting against, I mean segregation-- BENFORD: To my knowledge, if there were any folk protesting it, we didn&#039 ; t hear it. There might have been some private people, but nobody ever challenged what we were doing, publicly. It never reached the press, or nothing like that. Now, there might have been some disgruntled folk, but they, they did, they did it without a complaint. MAYFIELD: How, how-- BENFORD: And it worked out perfectly. MAYFIELD: How did it compare with La Marque then? BENFORD: Well, La Marque&#039 ; s integration came out of a controversy. We&#039 ; d had, oh, kind of scuffles and battles, with the La Marque school board. And of course, uh, and a lot of things that we, when, and when we didn&#039 ; t like things, we would go down, and we&#039 ; d protested, and all that, you know. And so, we had a teacher here, and her name was Rosa Jones. And she was a pioneer teacher in, in the Black school here. And she was also sort of a semi-community leader, and she played the piano for the churches. And she was well-known and well-loved by everybody. (laughs) But she got her age mixed up some kind of way. And actually, they wanted to retire her. And of course, I don&#039 ; t know how she got her application mixed up. And so then, they kind of got onto her about it. And it became a community fight. And she was so well-loved by the Black in the community, until they kind of stood with her. And we went down and had a community meeting. They, you know, they let her go. And we went down and protested. We, but we didn&#039 ; t, I, we didn&#039 ; t know she was as old as she was. And she had turned in several applications and her age was different blah, blah, blah. And that&#039 ; s how they caught onto her, I guess. Anyway, when that thing, really, really, really, really reached its peak, I guess there was maybe a thousand folk. We met at the old La Marque High School, and in the auditorium, I didn&#039 ; t even try to go down to the front, there were so many people, because they were trying to defend Miss Jones. And of course, when they, when they whipped out the information they had, we found out that she was a little older-- MAYFIELD: (laughs) BENFORD: --than she had said &quot ; She was.&quot ; And naturally they, I don&#039 ; t know if there was a law that you couldn&#039 ; t teach after a certain age or what, I really don&#039 ; t know, but I do know that she had lied about how old she was-- MAYFIELD: Oh, hmm, hmm. BENFORD: --on her applications. And it was base enough for them, you know, to release her. So, we were defeated in, in, in saving her job. We were just trying to save her job because we loved her. And she knew how to work with children. And she was a typical throwback to the kind of a teacher and community leader that Blacks needed. And she served so many. She wore so many hats in the community. She was kind to old folk and stuff like that. And she played the piano for churches and stuff like that. And she would do things with the boys and girls out of the ordinary, you know. And she was just loved. But when, when we were, when they confronted her with the facts that she was older than she had said she was. We had to tuck our tails. MAYFIELD: Oh, yep. BENFORD: And because we didn&#039 ; t know, we, we didn&#039 ; t know she was that old. But, in the meantime, in the meantime, while this was going on, it was such a fight. The school erupted here, I mean, for days. The kids weren&#039 ; t even in school here. The kids walked out of school. For days, there were no Black children in the Black schools over here because that&#039 ; s just how much she was loved and all that. And somebody, it certainly wasn&#039 ; t me. I think it was somebody ---------(?)(?) said &quot ; Why don&#039 ; t we just go on and integrate these schools and stop all this stuff.&quot ; Because we had had a, we had had a problem here. Principal Simms died. And he was, and he was well-loved, well-loved by white and Black. And of course, they hired another guy named, T. J. Jackson, he&#039 ; s dead now, as principal. No, they didn&#039 ; t hire Jackson. They tried to put a white principal over Lincoln High School. They called it Lincoln High School. It&#039 ; s called La Marque High School now, but the name of that, the school at that time, was Lincoln. And they did put a white man over Lincoln School, and of course, that was a slap in the face to Black community. And so, we didn&#039 ; t really know what to do to break it up, uh, stop it. But they knew we were going to do something. So, I called a meeting at this church and that was on a Friday. And about a hundred and some odd people came, and we met in our cafeteria. But we didn&#039 ; t really meet for that. We met about something else. And of course, they had their, they had, they had their spy system. And every time we held a meeting, they&#039 ; d send somebody to see who it was, and blah, blah, blah. So, they sent a white preacher, whose name was Bob Baxter, and he was a pastor, I think of the Presbyterian Church, that church on Lake Road that got that high tower to it. That&#039 ; s where he pastored. But Bob was a good guy, and he was friendly, and he and I were buddies, and all that. And um, but they sent him down to see what was going on. They didn&#039 ; t know what was going on. And so, I, but I would always watch outside when they were there having a meeting because it, we had had a lot of threats. And every time we&#039 ; d meet, you know, there was a crowd, and the city&#039 ; s going to blow us up, and blah, blah, blah. And so, I would always keep watch. And, and you know, so I was out, I saw Bob turn the corner on the street, he turned on Andrews Street and went down Andrews Street and he came back. And he was just gazing, and looking, and trying to find out what he could find out. But there was nothing he could find out. And so finally, he kept on doing it until we dismissed the meeting. And of course, he was making a fast little trip through there. And so, he saw me. And so, when he saw me, I waved at him and he turned around, and he was driving a little Volkswagen car, came back to me. And of course, I said, &quot ; Yeah, we had a meeting this morning.&quot ; And of course, naturally, he didn&#039 ; t know what for, but he didn&#039 ; t have the nerve to ask. And so, I told him, that we met to discuss the fact that they had a white principal over Lincoln High School. And I told him that the Black community was not going to stand for it. And I told him that if, that white principal wasn&#039 ; t away from there, that was on a Friday, by Monday, we were going to come to the streets. And that&#039 ; s one thing they did not want. And so, he left here. He left us. He left this church. He turned on two wheels and he went downtown and told them what I said. And of course, I told him that nobody was going to talk with him but me. And so, then that Friday later on, I went down to the administrative building. I think Dr. Tinney was superintendent then. And he said, &quot ; You know, he said, Reverend, I know y&#039 ; all are unhappy about us.&quot ; I let him know we were not going to stand for this. You aren&#039 ; t going to put no white principal over that school. And so, Dr. Tinney said, &quot ; Well, we don&#039 ; t know where to find a Black principal.&quot ; I said, &quot ; You can call Prairie View College, you can call any Black college.&quot ; I said, &quot ; And they can tell you somebody that could serve as principal, that&#039 ; s qualified.&quot ; I said, &quot ; They got people, students, and all that.&quot ; And I said, &quot ; All you got to do is call and tell them that you are looking for somebody qualified to be principal of Lincoln High School.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Then you can get somebody.&quot ; In the meantime, he was just whining. He said, &quot ; We just don&#039 ; t know anybody. I said, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; ll tell you what.&quot ; I had known a man ; his name was Ralph Allen. I knew Ralph Allen when he was a boy. He&#039 ; s from Lufkin, Texas. His mom was a schoolteacher at Dunbar High School in Lufkin. And of course, Ralph was a great football player. His name was a household word in that town, and he was just loved by everybody. And so, he finished Dunbar, and he went to a college called Texas College in Tyler, Texas. So, I kept up with him. And when he finished Texas College, he came back and he became the principal of Dunbar School in Lufkin, where he was raised. And I&#039 ; d heard a lot about him and how good he was. And he had great principal qualities, and discipline, and he knew how to handle our folk. And I said, I said, &quot ; I know a man that y&#039 ; all might could get if you call him and talk to him.&quot ; And so, naturally, he said, &quot ; Who?&quot ; And I said,&quot ; You call Lufkin, Texas and tell them you want to talk to Ralph Allen.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I know him.&quot ; I said, &quot ; He can handle this school, too.&quot ; So, he called Lufkin, in my presence, and asked to speak to Ralph Allen. And they told him that Ralph didn&#039 ; t work there anymore. That Ralph had moved to Nacogdoches, twenty miles away. And he was, he was over there, employed. And so they gave Dr. Tinney Ralph&#039 ; s phone number. So then, Dr. Tinney called Ralph, in my presence, and told him who he was. And told him, that I had mentioned him as being a competent principal and all. And that they were interested in, in seeing about getting him to work for the La Marque Independent School District. And this district, at that time, was one of the highest paying districts in, in the country. And everybody knew that. So, he asked them, what kind of salary range would you get? And they gave him an idea. So, we can work with you. And so, he made an appointment with them. And he came down here. And he was just what they were working for. And that&#039 ; s how Ralph Allen, who stayed here till he died, died a few days ago, uh, got to La Marque. And he didn&#039 ; t know, himself, how he got here. I didn&#039 ; t tell him. I wasn&#039 ; t the one who told him about it. But he took over and he brought everything back to Lincoln High School. And Lincoln High School, and he controlled it. The boys and girls loved him. Oh, he was like a father to everybody. And so, that&#039 ; s how he got here. But I&#039 ; m the cause of him being here, but I never did tell him. About, maybe, four or five years before he died, they used to have a program with the county hospital on Fridays with Black history. And we put him on to speak. And he got up at the podium, and he did a marvelous job, and the folk applauded him. I was presiding. And so, I said it with him, that I was the one that told Dr. Tinney about him. I let him know I had known him from a boy. I never did see him, I just heard about him. His reputation is, you know, and I really did this and did that and I&#039 ; m the one that gave them his name and his number. And he liked to fainted. And I was there when they called him. But I never told him I did it because I didn&#039 ; t want him to you know feel beholding to me or nothing like that. And so, he knew about five years before he passed away that&#039 ; s how he got here. But I&#039 ; m the one, I&#039 ; m the reason he came because I shared with Dr. Tinney. And Dr. Tinney took my word on him and got him. I&#039 ; ve done a lot of things around here. And of course, I don&#039 ; t crow or nothing like that. I just kind of stayed in the background. And that&#039 ; s also something else I&#039 ; m proud of, because he brought everything back to the school that it needed. And for years, he served as principal. And he worked with the community and with them. He had the respect of everybody. And so Texas City integrated. And then finally, La Marque integrated, and we got together and, and they asked me to do the same thing, same thing Texas City did. And they wanted to know what was important to us, and all that. And I shared the thing with them that we would, you know, we would want an integration. Same thing I told Texas City. We want fair play. There&#039 ; s two sides to everything. And if boys and girls get into it, let the facts speak for themselves, you know. And we know we got to have a punishment system, but let&#039 ; s don&#039 ; t put nobody, nothing on nobody that can&#039 ; t handle them, you know, and just give them stuff like that. And we wanted, you know, employment of our people because there was a tendency to, to fire all the Blacks when they&#039 ; d integrate schools. And we said, &quot ; We want our people to have a chance to teach and work.&quot ; And our boys and girls need to see, you know, some of our faces when they come in these schools. MAYFIELD: Can you tell me-- BENFORD: So, they agreed to that. MAYFIELD: Can you tell me what year this all took place? BENFORD: Well, the year, I really can&#039 ; t do that because, but it, it won&#039 ; t be hard to find out because all you got to do is call and ask for the records. And they can give them to you. And Dr. Tinney, when he was superintendent and all that. And I, and I think this did take place when he was superintendent. And of course, Tinney and I used to fight, but we got along too. We never did fight to the death or nothing like that. And so, but we can get the dates. We can get the dates. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BENFORD: Yeah. We can get the dates. I got a friend, a boy that I raised, named James Daniels. He&#039 ; s doing the same thing now that Johnnie Henderson used to do. And he goes all around the United States and settles disputes and stuff like that. And I raised him. When I came here, he was two years old. And he grew up in this church. And he&#039 ; s a very, very wise person. And I&#039 ; m going to ask him all about the years because he knows all the years. He was kid when everybody walked out of the Lincoln School behind Rosie Jones, and all that. And so, but he, he can help me with the dates, but I can get those dates for you. MAYFIELD: Okay. BENFORD: I&#039 ; ll let him know the dates and then, and of course, then it was a lot of things going at the same time. We integrated the schools. They hand-picked boys and girls out of Lincoln to come to La Marque High School. And of course, the great, the great fear was that negroes could not do English. And that was not true. We had a girl named Iva Turner, and another girl named Marie Moore, and there was another girl, and they belonged to this church. They went over there. They sent eight of the best students they had over there, kind of like on a trial basis to handle. And then they handled things real good. And all three of those girls went to the University of Texas when they finished La Marque, Lincoln, La Marque High School then. MAYFIELD: So, you&#039 ; re saying that it&#039 ; s sort of the integration took place in chunks, right? So, the first time, for the first part of the integration, there were eight students? BENFORD: Well, no, I&#039 ; m not saying that. But these boys and girls were picked, you know, from, I guess, I suppose our teachers picked them and they sent them over there. It was just folk talk that negroes could not do English, and all that. But these three girls, these, especially, these three, they were outstanding in English. And that at no time were they stumped by La Marque High School English or College English. They went to UT and they finished UT, and all that, and then they, but they, but they was like our, our, some of our best students. They sent, uh, they integrated. They integrated high school first. And when they found that our boys and girls could really handle it, and they just integrated the whole thing. But they, it was kind of like a trial basis. It wasn&#039 ; t no partial thing, but that was one of the great issues, could negroes do or understand English. They can get the, you know, English books that were in the curriculum then. And of those three, it was eight of them. And they proved that they could. I mean, they were watched. And they passed that test, and they got it going, you know, real good. And of course, there were sometimes there was tension in the schools. And we were all called on to volunteer and walked the halls. And I did my share to keep boys and girls from scrapping. And of course, when it got down to the mascot, that was our biggest fight. We got down to the mascot. The Lincoln school was called the Lincoln Eagles. And La Marque school was called the La Marque Cougars. And of course, there was a boy named Norm Bulaich. He went to pros from La Marque High School, white school. And of course, Blacks were not allowed in the pros too much then. But Norm Bulaich, became a great, great, star, great star, and all that. And he was very popular. And so, we clashed on what we were going to call, you know, the football team, and other sports. And of course, they wanted to keep the cougars, and we wanted to keep the Eagles. And of course, in all of the integration cases, Blacks never did raise issue about the mascot. But I raised it. And so, that hung, hung us up for almost a week. And I had some encouragement from the white communities. They said, &quot ; Reverend, don&#039 ; t give in.&quot ; Said, &quot ; If y&#039 ; all got to give y&#039 ; all&#039 ; s up, they got to give theirs up too.&quot ;   MAYFIELD: So, you changed the-- BENFORD: --and they told me not to agree--huh? MAYFIELD: So, you changed entirely the mascot? BENFORD: We changed entirely. I wouldn&#039 ; t budge. I said, &quot ; If we can&#039 ; t keep ours, you can&#039 ; t keep yours. We got to go to a neutral name.&quot ; And so then, uh, and we all up late tonight, blah, blah, blah. So, finally, um, in one of our disputes, and all, I just said, I said, &quot ; We all know this is enough. Just call them anything, just call them anything.&quot ; And, lions, tigers, and somebody grabbed it. Just call them Tigers. And that&#039 ; s how they got the name La Marque Tigers. MAYFIELD: Hmm. Okay.  BENFORD: Hmm, hmm. And so, we gave up the Eagles, and they gave up the Cougars, and La Marque became the La Marque Tigers.  MAYFIELD: Were there any other issues at the schools related to integration that-- BENFORD: --occasionally, tempers flared. And sometimes, things happened. Kids got into it with teachers. I never shall forget at the junior high school, there was a lady--. And of course, and there were people that, that didn&#039 ; t understand negroes, and negroes didn&#039 ; t understand white people. (Audio interference) had their teachers, and all that. And they had their ideas, and our folk had their ideas. And we had some bad kids, and things like that. And, I said, &quot ; Bad, you know,&quot ; but they just ---------(?)(?). And I never shall forget one time, that, one of a little junior high student got into it with a teacher. And of course, I mean it got into a tussle. And they, and so this girl kind of pulled this teacher&#039 ; s hair. And, she pulled quite a bit of it. And it, it was really, really kind of, became offensive. And so, then they expelled her. They expelled her from school and all. And of course, we didn&#039 ; t know what happened. We wasn&#039 ; t there. But we took it up. I, or at least, I took it up. I said, &quot ; Well, we need to have a fair hearing. We can&#039 ; t take her word for it. And let&#039 ; s just have a fair, impartial hearing.&quot ; And so, then they said &quot ; Okay.&quot ; And of course, they allowed us to get this little girl a lawyer to just, to represent them because she couldn&#039 ; t represent herself. And of course, um, there was a boy at, at TSU campus. His name was Craig Washington. Craig Washington, later on, shook the world. And of course, I had met him one day there. And he was a law student at TSU law school. And of course, he comes to the gathering. He said, &quot ; Reverend call me.&quot ; So, when they said, get a lawyer to defend this little girl, I took a hundred dollars of my money, and I called Craig and asked what would he charge to come and defend and to make sure the girl got a fair hearing. And of course, he said, &quot ; A hundred dollars.&quot ; So, he came to this very office where I am right now and he took the little girl&#039 ; s case. And he got all the boys and girls that knew, that saw it, blah, blah, blah. He called them all in and he let them tell their story. And they had appointed a date for the hearing. And of course, they allowed me and others to come in for the hearing. All the school board members came. And of course, Craig was a young, I do mean young, Black attorney. And of course, he came (laughs). When he got there, the first thing he did, he gave all the school board members cigars. And then he lit them for them. And oooo, that went all over me, I, man. I said, &quot ; What in the world?&quot ; And then, he got them to relax. And so, when he, when he brought all the facts out, they reinstated the little girl, and they fired the instructor.  MAYFIELD: Oh. BENFORD: They sure did. They fired her. And that&#039 ; s one thing that I never shall forget. It was fair! When they really got the facts of what brought it on, and you know, and all that kind of thing, and they found that the little girl was provoked, and all that. And she is just a kid, fourteen or fifteen years old. And she reacted like a kid. Hmm, hmm. Now that, that, that, to my knowledge we didn&#039 ; t, we, we never had anything else in any degree to occur in La Marque, in the school district. MAYFIELD: Do you remember where you were when Martin Luther King was killed? BENFORD: Yes, I was in Texas City. And I was at Pastor Evan Johnson&#039 ; s home. I was at his home. And the news flashed that he had been shot. It wasn&#039 ; t strange though because we had been looking for it. And we knew that they were not going to let him continue to do what he was doing and stir this nation like he was stirring it. And not take him out. So, it was, it was sad, but it wasn&#039 ; t shocking. And we knew it was going to stir up a lot of anger and hate, and we knew riots were coming. And of course, we also knew that wasn&#039 ; t going to really change anything. We just knew that we had suffered a great loss. I almost went to his funeral. I could have easily gone, but I recognized the fact that I, it was so many folk going to be there that I couldn&#039 ; t breathe. And so, I said, &quot ; I could do just as much good here by just praying and stuff like that. And it&#039 ; s going over there.&quot ; I could have easily gone to his funeral. I met him twice in my lifetime.  MAYFIELD: Oh, how was that? BENFORD: Well, he came to Houston. And I was civil rights worker, and everybody knew it. So naturally, we wouldn&#039 ; t turn down a chance to go and see him. He was a weird looking fellow. It was an air of mystery about him. Just to behold, to look at him. He looked like he was from another world to me. I, eyeballed him when I looked at him. And you could almost just tell, but his destiny was set. He came to a fundraiser. And of course, they, they raised a lot of funds for the cause. And we&#039 ; d all get funds. I was in his presence two times, but I hadn&#039 ; t a chance to speak to him, and all that. And he was, he was very inspiring, very, very inspiring. MAYFIELD: Was there anything that he ever said that till this day stands out in your mind? BENFORD: Would you please repeat that? MAYFIELD: Was there anything that he said, particularly, when you saw him live, that to this day, stands out in your mind? BENFORD: No more than the common. They just told him that I was a young man in Texas City, Texas. And I was very, very active in civil rights movement. And I had served on some committees. And so, he knew my little background and of course I was, uh, I was young. And of course, he just told me to hang in there and not to give up and, and never allow anger to play a part of my decision making. And never allow hate to motivate my activity. He told me to always in operate in love. Christian love. Godly love. Agape love, and that&#039 ; s love that seeks the best for others. And so, but that was my attitude already, so, I just knew I was doing the right thing and I just continued to do that. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: What-- BENFORD: He was a very, very, he&#039 ; s a very, he was a weird looking dude to me.  MAYFIELD: (laughs) Was he, he seemed short to you? Or tall? Or? BENFORD: Well, no, he was just a normal size.  MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BENFORD: He was just kind of a normal sized guy. And he wasn&#039 ; t large and he, he wasn&#039 ; t small. He was just a normal sized man. He was very, very, uh, see, he wasn&#039 ; t flamboyant or nothing like that. He was very, very serene and serious. And he had a lot on his mind. He had a lot on his mind. And all that. He&#039 ; s-- MAYFIELD: I wanted to ask you-- BENFORD: He was a child of destiny. MAYFIELD: He was a child of destiny? BENFORD: Hmm? MAYFIELD: He was a child of destiny? BENFORD: He was a child of destiny. You could just see it. He was born for a purpose. And I think he understood he was on a mission. And I think he understood that what he, that the mission he was on, that nobody could do it but him. And we never expected, I didn&#039 ; t expect him to come as far as he came and be alive in America at that time. And of course, they finally decided they&#039 ; d take him out. And of course, they did it. And of course, we were hurt. And we knew we had lost a great, a great man to follow. We knew we&#039 ; d lost leadership. And of course, we haven&#039 ; t had that caliber of leadership since. We really haven&#039 ; t. We had, uh, now understand that Jesse Jackson was kind of in, you know, behind him. And Jesse Jackson became, you know, things that he dreamed about. And Jesse Jackson had, he had those two ways, he understood that no matter how many rights we got, that we would have to be in some way, kind of, included in. He, he talked about silver as really civil rights. He said, &quot ; If you ain&#039 ; t got no money, there&#039 ; s nothing you can do.&quot ; We had to have access to some of the silver. And so, Jackson fought two fights. He motivated people to fight corporations and things to give us a chance. Qualify for a chance, and, and he&#039 ; s still doing it. And so, he talked about civil rights as silver rights.  MAYFIELD: Silver, meaning money, and civil, meaning people. BENFORD: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And civil means law, government, justice, you know. Equal opportunity. And that&#039 ; s what I learned from him. MAYFIELD: That&#039 ; s an interesting concept. BENFORD: Yeah. That&#039 ; s what I learned from him. And he&#039 ; s been here twice. I invited him, and he came. He preached at my pulpit on Sunday morning. And of course, he, and, and, and you couldn&#039 ; t count the folk inside and outside. And he was a great inspirational speaker. MAYFIELD: Jesse Jackson. BENFORD: He could move, he could move, he could move. He came here twice and spoke. And then, one time, he spoke to my youth while he was here. Got all of our youth together and he spoke to them, and he was very, very, very impressive.  MAYFIELD: Well, I wa--, I wanted to ask you just a couple more questions because, I know it&#039 ; s getting late. --. BENFORD: Okay. MAYFIELD: And, you know, you&#039 ; ve been a pastor for seventy years, and I know that you were married and had two children? BENFORD: Ma&#039 ; am? MAYFIELD: You were married twice and then you had two children, correct? BENFORD: No, I had two children by my first wife. I had two children by my first wife. And I had three children by my second wife.  MAYFIELD: Who did your, how did your family play a role in your church? BENFORD: My family, well, I was well-loved here and well-thought of. And my first marriage was just a mistake. I married ; we were unequally yoked. And after five years, we peacefully parted. But I kept my relationship with my children. And then, because they knew I met and married Julia, Juletta Wright. She was a schoolteacher. And she understood me, and she understood the ministry, and what have you. And she was also a marvelous songster, and all that. And we stayed married sixty-two years-- MAYFIELD: That&#039 ; s a very long time. BENFORD: --almost. If I, if, if she&#039 ; d lived, if she had lived to see December 12th of this year, we would have been married sixty-two years. She died April the seventeenth of this year. MAYFIELD: Oh. BENFORD: So, we were married sixty-one years. Almost sixty-two years. And she was right by my side and she shared all of my joys and my sorrows. And of course, we&#039 ; re getting over that too. MAYFIELD: Did she work in the church with you? BENFORD: Yes, she did. She was born in church, worked in church, she had a lot of talents. She knew how to do things. And she knew how to work with ladies and, and programs, and of course, that made my work much--. I just, I, I primarily want to be known as a preacher. I&#039 ; ve never wanted to be known as a civil rights worker, even though I am, and all that. But I am a preacher. And that&#039 ; s what I want folks to do me for. And there&#039 ; s a lot of things I can get in, and a lot like, lot of things I&#039 ; ve shared with you, I don&#039 ; t share with anybody. Like the Head Start stuff, and things like that. And I&#039 ; m the one that sat on both committees to integrate Texas City and La Marque. And, well, I don&#039 ; t crow about that kind of stuff.  MAYFIELD: Did your-- BENFORD: And I didn&#039 ; t count the things that we, you know, have got done. So, uh, but I, when I die, I want to be remembered as a preacher of the gospel. That&#039 ; s what God called me to do. And I&#039 ; ve been trying to do that seventy-six years. I&#039 ; ve been preaching, going on, Dec--. If I live to see December 25th of this year, I will have been preaching seventy-six years.  MAYFIELD: That&#039 ; s amazing. BENFORD: And I was, I, I&#039 ; ve been here, seventy years. MAYFIELD: Wow! BENFORD: I&#039 ; ve preached, I&#039 ; ve preached, I&#039 ; ve pastored other churches before I came here. I had three more churches that I pastored. But they were rural churches. This is my first full-time church where you preach every Sunday. See, I, I had churches where if I came here on a first Sunday, I&#039 ; d come back on the third Sunday. If I preached somewhere on a second Sunday, I&#039 ; d go, I&#039 ; d go back there on the fourth Sunday. That&#039 ; s called part-time pastoring. But when you go to church where you teach at the same church every Sunday, that&#039 ; s full-time pastoring. MAYFIELD: Did you-- BENFORD: I&#039 ; ve been here since 1950 as a full-time pastor, MAYFIELD: Did, did your children get, uh, what are the names of your children? BENFORD: Ma&#039 ; am? MAYFIELD: What are the names of your children? BENFORD: Alright. I have a boy named after me. His name is Thomas, I mean his name is D. N. Benford, Jr. And they call him Junior. He is also a minister and a musician. He&#039 ; s a songwriter. He&#039 ; s very, very gifted. As a speaker and a composer, and things like that. And he serves as my musician here now. MAYFIELD: Okay. BENFORD: Okay. And then, I had a daughter named Arla. Arla Rochell, but they were sisters and brothers. And she was a songbird. She had an unusual voice that moved people. And I lost her, I lost her to a domestic feud. Her husband took her life. Even though he wasn&#039 ; t charged for it. And they were sisters and brothers. And then, when I married my wife Julia, the one I stayed with sixty-two and half years, I had a daughter named Michelle. And then I had a girl named Yolanda. And then I had another girl named Toni. And then I had one more son. His name was Thomas Nathaniel Benford. And of course, he was a great star at La Marque High School, football player.  MAYFIELD: Oh. BENFORD: Yes. MAYFIELD: Amazing. BENFORD: Big star, when he was going to La Marque High School, they were twenty-nine and one. And he left there and went on. And he had a great mind. And Rice recruited him. And then, he started playing football for Rice. And Rice had not had a winning football season in thirty-four years. And he turned their season around. I got an article that they put in The Houston Post of him, on the front page. And they point him out as being the source of Rice&#039 ; s first winning football season. His defensive ability, in thirty-four years. And he played football for Rice. And they, they been winning a little something ever since. Yeah, Rice University. He left there and he went to Harvard. He finished Harvard. He was a great mathematician. Um, math was just his strong suit. And of course, he had a chance to play pro football. The Green Bay Packers, and Dallas Cowboys, and Seattle Rangers, they all offered him a great scholarship, but Chase Manhattan got him. And he got a, uh, they helped him finish Harvard. And so, he deals in the business world. And right now, he is something like a CEO for Coca-Cola Bottling Company. MAYFIELD: Oh, I see, okay. BENFORD: Yes, and they, the state of Florida is, is under their supervision. All Cokes in Florida. MAYFIELD: That&#039 ; s why you&#039 ; re so familiar with the Coke story. BENFORD: Yeah, hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BENFORD: Yeah, he&#039 ; s over there. I think he has, he has about maybe fifteen hundred folk there work under him or something. MAYFIELD: Well, I&#039 ; m going to ask you, uh, I think we should try and wrap up. I know I&#039 ; ve kept you for a while. I&#039 ; m so sorry. BENFORD: Well, I mean, it just doesn&#039 ; t bother me, ma&#039 ; am. I mean, I ain&#039 ; t, I ain&#039 ; t doing nothing. MAYFIELD: Um-- BENFORD: I ain&#039 ; t doing nothing. MAYFIELD: But is there anything else that you would like to share? That you would like to make sure to include in your oral history story? Um-- BENFORD: Well-- MAYFIELD: --that we haven&#039 ; t talked about? BENFORD: There may be one or two (audio interference) I&#039 ; d like to share. I do think that at this moment, that the, there&#039 ; s too much complacency on the part of our people. And they are taking things for granted. Years ago, they sent an emissary from Washington, D. C., to this church, to this community. And we were having, you know, all, all the folk, all the folk of leadership in Galveston County were meeting here. As a matter--,this happened during the time that civil rights was announced. And they sent these, they sent two men down here to talk to us and to give us the instruction we needed in as far as to the fact that we had been given civil rights. And we allowed one of the men to speak. And he spoke to all of us. Hundreds of people, right in this church. Outside and inside.  MAYFIELD: Do you remember his name? BENFORD: No. Lordy, I (laughs) by God, that was so long ago. I probably got it around on something. But I wouldn&#039 ; t know where to find it. But he said something that night when he came to speak to us and let us know that we were free, unconditionally. And all the rights that any American citizen is entitled to, that we were entitled to them as well. And they had fixed it so that legally we could demand them if they didn&#039 ; t give them to us. And he said one thing, and I was listening to him. And he said to us, &quot ; Whatever we do as a people, do not become complacent.&quot ; With the achievements we had made, he said,&quot ; Don&#039 ; t become satisfied. Don&#039 ; t relax.&quot ; He encouraged us to stay on our guard and keep training the coming generations of the price we had to pay to hold our freedom. And here&#039 ; s what he said, he said, &quot ; I am a, I am a white man, and I do know white people.&quot ; And he told us, &quot ; The white man&quot ; , he said, &quot ; is a stubborn enemy. And he gives ground grudgingly.&quot ; Like soldiers, he said, &quot ; You got to go in and you got to be in there to let him out.&quot ; He said, &quot ; But when he&#039 ; s, when the white man sees that he is defeated, he&#039 ; ll give up.&quot ; He said, &quot ; But don&#039 ; t rest on that, because he will come back.&quot ; &quot ; And if you become complacent, he will take everything he gave you.&quot ; And I&#039 ; ve never forgotten that. I don&#039 ; t take freedom for granted. We&#039 ; ve got to keep on being A-number-one good citizens, you know. And we got to stay organized, mobilized. We&#039 ; ve got to be a part of the system. We&#039 ; ve got to make sure that we are included, and all that. And like he said, &quot ; When you are out of sight, you&#039 ; re out of mind.&quot ; So, that means, we&#039 ; ve got to be there. We&#039 ; ve got to speak up and speak out. And it troubles me that so many of our people are satisfied with what they got. And we have never claimed all, all our freedom, anyway. Man, that bible they had, it just is so many things we used to could ---------(?)(?) --I don&#039 ; t know if we can get them now--that we had access to. And there were funds for, sponsored, and all that kind of stuff. I&#039 ; m sure those things have been long since blotted out. But I&#039 ; m like you, I&#039 ; d like to have that bible again, just to look at it. I do have that leaflet, that pamphlet that spelled out the rights of the poor. MAYFIELD: But I sort of find that interesting, because it&#039 ; s the rights of the poor, but why is it acquainted to the rights of the Black then? BENFORD: Well, they just called it the poor.  MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BENFORD: They were written for us. And we are poor. We&#039 ; re poor. We&#039 ; re poor. We are the last ones hired. First ones fired. And that&#039 ; s always been true. Yeah. We are the last ones hired on any job. And we&#039 ; re the first ones fired. And of course, we can&#039 ; t go to sleep on nothing. And of course, we are never paid equal pay of the folk. They have always found a way to give us less and give their folk more. And so, they classified us as--they called it the rights of the poor. And of course, they administered these were the things that we were not getting, that we could get, because they made provisions for us to get it, in that act. In that act. And we are victims of segregation. We are the only folk that came to America, that, that somebody passed a law that said &quot ; I couldn&#039 ; t do it.&quot ; They didn&#039 ; t do the Irishmen like that. The Germans. The Russians. None of those folks came to America with bans on them progressing, and getting education, you know, and nothing like that. But special laws have been passed in America to stop me if I&#039 ; m Black. I can&#039 ; t do it. I can&#039 ; t come in. I can&#039 ; t be a part of it. So, that means, we got to get up off the ground and win anyway. And that&#039 ; s the attitude that most have toward Black because they were taught that. Anybody can have it, but you. If you&#039 ; re Black, get back. If you&#039 ; re brown, stick around. If you&#039 ; re white, you&#039 ; re right. And that&#039 ; s, and that&#039 ; s in the minds of a lot of white folk right now. MAYFIELD: So, do you think that the thought is still there. The negative thought of African Americans is still there, now? BENFORD: You, that, now, when you said, what thought are you talking about? MAYFIELD: Well, that, to not allow rights? BENFORD: That, yeah, are you, uh, yes, we do. I think that people still think that we are inferior. MAYFIELD: Yes. BENFORD: Yes. Yes. Yes. It, it, it is more predominant now than it has ever been. I&#039 ; m ninety years old and I&#039 ; ve never seen as much bigotry and as much prejudice as this nation is now under. And of course, when the leader of a nation draw a line and endorse people who don&#039 ; t want to abide by the Constitution and see all men equal, he loosens the forces of evil on that nation. And of course, the leader we have now, in no uncertain terms, has made it very plain that he believes in white supremacy. He believes in these groups that want the hog and hare ; you know. And anybody, but a Black. And he has licensed people to kill us with his, with his talk. Just his talk, has done that. And just this year alone, 154 Black folk have been killed, you know, in custody, and unarmed, and, and I mean, by folk that are supposed to be protecting them. And it&#039 ; s all because of the attitude of the leader we have. The other night in the debate, he would not, he would not admit that these, the Klan, and other groups like them, are wrong. We can&#039 ; t have it both ways. Either I&#039 ; m for the Constitution or I&#039 ; m not. Any man that&#039 ; s not for, and that swears an oath that he will enforce the Constitution, he&#039 ; s not fit to lead this nation. And President Trump has done this on more than one occasion. I ain&#039 ; t talking about his morals. His disrespect for women, you know, and all that kind of stuff. The man has said it in no uncertain terms, he does not believe that certain people ought to have what other folk got. And Lincoln and them said &quot ; That, that all men are created equal.&quot ; And of course, I, you, I can see, and you can see, this, this nation is aflame right now with all this hate and stuff. And it&#039 ; s getting worse. It&#039 ; s getting worse. And, he has sowed the seed of revolution. If this man gets back in a second term. Huh uh. I don&#039 ; t want to say what I know is going to be. Just here recently, he&#039 ; s, when he was debating with B--, with, the candidate, Biden, and all that. And Biden, he would not denounce white superiority and Americans just like that. He wouldn&#039 ; t do it. And, and just, uh, (laughs) just yesterday, he called (laughs) he called vice-president candidate Harris, oh Lord. He called her everything but a child of God. And a man who don&#039 ; t respect women, I don&#039 ; t know.  MAYFIELD: Well-- BENFORD: And if Ameri--, and if they go back, if these folk in America, um, put him back in office, it ain&#039 ; t going to be no America. Because he has given license for men to abuse men. And all is, he, he&#039 ; s turning America into a jungle. And only the strong are going to survive.  MAYFIELD: You know, it will be very interesting, Reverend Benford, to have a conversation off, off, um, offline with you about this. BENFORD: Yeah. Well, I&#039 ; d be very happy to talk with anybody. MAYFIELD: (laughs) Hmm, hmm. BENFORD: I&#039 ; d be very happy to talk with anyone. Anyone. Anytime. Anywhere. Night, it don&#039 ; t get too dark and the days don&#039 ; t get too long. I&#039 ; m available. MAYFIELD: Well, I was going to say, as a reverend for so many years-- BENFORD: Yes. MAYFIELD: --would you like to offer a short message, religious message, that you know, that tells a little bit about you? And then we will finish our oral history?  BENFORD: I suppose I could do that. Would you like me to just say I&#039 ; m D. N. Benford and I was born in 1930 under harsh conditions of segregation, Jim Crowism. And I, we got the backlash of the Depression. Nobody had things and whatever they had, we Blacks, had less. The whole nation was in a pandemic of poverty and Blacks had less. Whatever they had, we had less. We were totally dependent upon God and the folks that God touched to give us any kind of a chance. And there are some good God-fearing folk in America. And because they are, God, through them, made a way for us and in some cases, they carried us on their backs. And we&#039 ; ve come this far. We have seen, I have seen the rights of Blacks come alive. I&#039 ; ve seen Jim Crow laws drop and fall. I&#039 ; ve seen opportunities open up, that were undreamed of in the world. I&#039 ; m saddened by one thing. The church, the so-called church, the most powerful folk in the world, that represent the All-Mighty God, has failed God in America by not proclaiming Bible-truth as to how men ought to live and treat one another. Because the preachers, and those that claim to represent God, have been quiet, indifferent, and silent on what the Bible says about men and their rights. And their standing before God, and how we treat one another. We have a pandemic of injustice, hate, crime, evil, racism, and anything you can name that spells disaster and defeat on our hands. And my prayer is that the folk who represent God will first of all claim what God said about men and their rights and how we are to live and treat one another. And my second prayer is that men are taken the oath of the American Constitution and not living up and their being, dividing themselves and being pressed by evil and forces that bring about injustice among men. And we don&#039 ; t have to live like that. We can&#039 ; t live like that. We are a house divided against ourselves. And we cannot stand. And my prayer to God is that the church would come alive. And before anybody makes any decisions or choices, we got to realize that God has already said what he wanted and there is no choice. It&#039 ; s God&#039 ; s way or the highway. MAYFIELD: Well-- BENFORD: And I just pray to God that we will come to God&#039 ; s way and the Constitution of the United States. MAYFIELD: Well, thank you Reverend Benford so much for allowing this opportunity to interview for our African American Experience Oral History Project. And, with that note, and your words, I&#039 ; d like to thank you again so much. And we conclude our interview at this time. BENFORD: I thank you for the opportunity and I pray to God that I said something that will help somebody. And thank you again. MAYFIELD: You&#039 ; re welcome. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, and copyrights, have been transferred to the Moore Memorial Public Library in Texas City. Parties interested in production or commercial use of the this resource should contact the Library Director at Moore Memorial Public Library. video 0 https://ohms.texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/viewer.php?cachefile=2020OH_AAE001.xml 2020OH_AAE001.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Reverend D.N. Benford Description An account of the resource Reverend D.N. Benford officially recognized as “the longest-serving pastor of a single church" by the Guinness Book of World Records, shares insight into his 72 years of experience as a preacher for the Rising Star Baptist Church. He talks about his family and what it was like for them as sharecroppers in Bremond, Texas. Benford details his educational journey to becoming an ordained minister and acquiring his Rising Star fellowship. Benford describes the neglected state of Rising Star Baptist Church as he first saw it and his efforts to improve it. He talks about the night the parsonage and church caught fire, the tribulations from the church members surrounding the contractor, Rueben Polk, to rebuild, and the struggle to find a temporary place for the congregation. Benford tells about the community, and how many people moved there for employment opportunities. He talks about the annexation of La Marque into Texas City and the community’s reaction. Benford talks about different stores and shopping venues such as Bogatto’s and the various lumberyards that opened due to the housing development. Benford talks about his children and two marriages; first to Dorothy Davis and then to Juletta Wright, a marriage that lasted almost 62 years. He describes his experience writing and winning a grant, with the help of Mary Crowder and Ruth Shannon Hicks to help open the first Head Start Daycare Center on the Mainland. He talks about the vote, the poll tax, and the role that Black ministers played in providing information to the community about political candidates. Benford talks about his involvement in the civil rights movement. He discusses the integration of schools and how it was important to select a neutral name for their new mascot. Benford tells the story about an African American student who was expelled and how it was necessary to hire a lawyer to protect her rights. He discusses the death of Martin Luther King, Jr. and the effect it had on him personally and on the community. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2020OH_AAE001 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-09-25 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://www.texascitytx.gov/DocumentCenter/View/3386/Copyright_2021_Final">MMPL Copyright Statement</a> https://texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/files/original/58efa40e1eedf9ce073a9405a675ac8e.jpg bb5e0dc79c0591b5251bf010ac41dd79 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource African American Experience - Texas City Description An account of the resource First hand accounts and stories from the African American community in Texas City, Texas. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Moore Memorial Public Library Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mayfield, Theresa Broussard, Brenda Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Theresa Mayfield Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daisy Bell Buster OHMS Object Location of the Magic OHMS Link for OHMS Viewer https://ohms.texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/viewer.php?cachefile=2021OH_AAE002.xml OHMS Object Text All the text from the XML (do not make public) 5.4 Interview with Daisy Belle Buster, November 10, 2021 2021OH_AAE002 1:28:59 OHAAE African American Experience - Texas City Moore Memorial Public Library Oral History Repository Daisy Bell Buster Theresa Mayfield 2021OH_AAE002 1:|13(13)|47(2)|65(1)|110(6)|151(7)|195(9)|219(9)|263(3)|301(10)|339(4)|366(7)|396(7)|431(2)|450(2)|468(1)|498(3)|545(7)|586(2)|623(10)|655(8)|687(3)|724(7)|758(2)|800(1)|825(11)|852(3)|888(3)|913(9)|927(5)|963(1)|980(10)|1017(5)|1051(1)|1074(12)|1100(13)|1131(12)|1170(5)|1207(3)|1252(2)|1306(11)|1330(3)|1366(10)|1398(3)|1449(12)|1497(1)|1537(6)|1572(11)|1619(4)|1632(1)|1650(4)|1670(12)|1698(5)|1727(13)|1759(9)|1788(10)|1811(9)|1846(3)|1878(5)|1914(14)|1942(1)|1964(7)|1993(12)|2021(15)|2039(11)|2071(8)|2094(12)|2123(11)|2152(9)|2180(10)|2195(6)|2211(1)|2236(4)|2256(14)|2284(14)|2310(4)|2323(9)|2352(11)|2371(3)|2396(5)|2419(10)|2443(4)|2469(1)|2499(4)|2513(1)|2539(9)|2564(2)|2591(1)|2605(15) 1:|13(14)|49(5)|65(4)|110(8)|150(10)|194(12)|217(11)|261(6)|299(13)|337(7)|364(12)|394(11)|428(15)|448(4)|465(2)|495(6)|542(11)|584(6)|620(12)|651(9)|682(8)|719(8)|752(5)|792(4)|817(13)|845(6)|883(4)|905(11)|919(2)|954(13)|971(13)|1007(8)|1040(17)|1065(15)|1092(3)|1122(2)|1160(8)|1197(6)|1242(4)|1295(14)|1319(5)|1355(13)|1387(8)|1437(14)|1482(9)|1524(9)|1559(14)|1605(8)|1617(11)|1634(7)|1654(11)|1682(8)|1712(3)|1743(12)|1773(2)|1795(13)|1830(5)|1861(10)|1898(2)|1924(3)|1946(7)|1974(15)|2003(2)|2019(11)|2051(11)|2075(2)|2104(2)|2131(13)|2159(13)|2174(7)|2188(18)|2213(8)|2238(4)|2263(14)|2289(6)|2302(2)|2331(11)|2350(4)|2374(4)|2397(12)|2420(8)|2444(15)|2475(7)|2491(15)|2521(12)|2546(2)|2576(3)|2591(2) 0 https://youtu.be/cxx2c6ZAawg YouTube video 0 Introduction Texas City (Tex.) 49 Buster introduces herself and discusses her birth and family Elnora Swan ; Oliver Swan ; Siblings African Americans--Families 127 Family's economic circumstances and employment Clarence Stoneburner ; Clarence Swan ; Mason ; Preacher ; R. M. Orth ; Roy Campbell ; Roy Swan ; Wharf African Americans--Economic conditions ; African Americans--Employment ; African Americans--Families 234 Extended family Dora Williams Adams African Americans--Families 368 Home and neighborhood Chemical plants ; Fourth Avenue South ; Second Avenue South ; Third Avenue South Texas City (Tex. )--Explosion, 1947 29.380, -94.902 18 Daisy Buster's Neighborhood. 599 Recreation in the neighborhood Park ; Sanders Center ; Swimming pool ; Wisby's Ice Cream Parlor African Americans--Recreation 641 Holidays and family traditions Bible stories African Americans--Food ; Holidays ; Juneteenth 732 Church and the importance of Religion BYPU ; Eight Street ; Galilee Methodist Church ; Mr. Fuller ; Mr. Henry ; Second Avenue South African Americans--Religion ; Baptist Young People's Union ; Clergy 938 Influential pastors Barbour's Chapel Church ; Methodist Church ; Rev. Johnson ; Rev. Perryman ; Rev. R. J. Scott African Americans--Religion ; Clergy 1018 First job babysitting for O.R. Snarr Family Babysitting ; O. R. Snarr Employment. 1053 Church programs and the Baptist Young People's Union Baptist Youth Training Union ; BYTU African Americans--Religion 1170 Booker T. Washington and school activities Aurilla Beavers ; Booker T. Washington School ; Boxing ; Calvin Vincent ; Ethel B. Vincent ; Iverson Godfrey ; Miss McClure ; Mr. Worsham ; Second Avenue South ; Sports ; Thomas S. Carter African Americans--Education--Texas 1526 Singing with the Glee Club Band ; Choir ; Glee Club ; Jesse James McFarland ; Sam Pickwicks Cafe ; Texas Avenue African Americans--Education--Texas ; African Americans--Segregation 1633 Booker T. Washington's influential teachers Aurilla Beavers ; Coach ; English ; Iverson Godfrey ; Thomas S. Carter African Americans--Education--Texas 1686 Post high school aspirations and career paths Amoco ; Chemical plants ; College of the Mainland ; Galveston County Memorial Hospital ; Huston-Tilloston College ; John Sealy Hospital ; Nursing ; Nursing homes ; Scholarship African Americans--Education (Higher) ; African Americans--Employment ; Texas City (Tex.) 1950 Social activities in the age of segregation Counter ; Johnnie Henderson ; Nessler Center ; Pic &amp ; Pay ; Pick &amp ; Pack ; Sit-in ; Texas Avenue ; Texas Theater ; Weingarten's African Americans--Recreation ; African Americans--Segregation ; Tennis ; Texas City (Tex. )--Explosion, 1947 2145 Childhood friends Barbara Caldwell ; Bobbie Hawkins ; Park ; The Dike ; Thelma Hawkins ; Wisby's Ice Cream Parlor 2217 Boxing with her brothers and Swan sibling dynamics Park ; Rose Swan ; Sanders Center ; Sports ; Thomas Swan Boxing 2367 Public entertainment and dining Agee's ; Movies ; Sam Pickwick's Cafe ; Sixth Street ; Terrace Drive-In ; Texas Theater ; The Showboat ; Weingarten's African Americans--Recreation ; African Americans--Segregation ; Motion Pictures 2494 Transportation Pontiac ; Studebaker 2536 Love of outdoor sports Fishing ; Hunting 2619 Learning to drive &quot ; Blues&quot ; ; Sixth Street ; Srpy's ; The &quot ; dump&quot ; ; Thomas Swan 2737 Coming into the world Dr. Leonard Twidwell African Americans--Hospital care 2784 News, radios and televisions Mr. Busbee's ; Radio Television 2846 &quot ; We never did lock our doors.&quot ; Safety 2875 1947 Texas City Disaster and living at Camp Wallace Camp Wallace ; Dave Milton ; Dickinson School ; Edward Swan ; Elnora Swan ; Explosion ; Fire ; Gerrie Swan ; Oliver Swan ; Rose Swan ; Sixth Street ; Third Avenue Texas City (Tex )--Explosion, 1947 3225 Hurricane Carla in 1961 Dave's Pawn Shop ; Flood ; Gwendolyn ; John Sealy Hospital ; Mainland Company ; Pregnancy ; R. M. Orth ; Rubinsteins ; Texas Avenue ; The Dike Hurricane Carla, 1961 3634 Dangers of living next to the chemical plants Alarm ; Chemical plants ; Fire ; Whistle 3747 Shopping around town Big Natches ; C. P. Evans ; Chamber's ; Nuckols ; Pic &amp ; Pac ; Pick &amp ; Pay ; Rizos ; Sixth Street ; Texas Avenue ; The Dike ; Weiner's 3894 First experience with racism African Americans--Segregation ; Discrimination 3997 Mom and dad had differing parenting styles 4066 Civil rights, segregation, and the NAACP Amoco ; Civil rights ; Community activism ; Demonstrations ; Johnnie Henderson ; Marches ; NAACP ; Non-violent protests ; Poll tax ; Protests ; Union African Americans--Civil rights--Texas ; African Americans--Segregation ; Labor unions ; Labor unions--Political activity ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Voting 4333 Talk about school integration School integration 4478 Johnnie Henderson and the Weingarten Sit-In Bobbie Hawkins ; Counter ; Ella Jean Jones ; Johnnie Henderson ; Protest ; Sit-in ; Weingarten's ; Willie Ray James African Americans--Civil rights--Texas ; African Americans--Segregation ; Non-Violent Protest ; Race discrimination--Texas 4754 Black leaders and the church's influence on civil rights in Texas City Boy Scouts ; Churches ; Community activism ; Mr. Covenson ; Mr. Fuller ; Mr. Henry ; NAACP African Americans--Civil rights--Texas ; Clergy 4885 The Role of women in the Civil Rights Movement 4923 Johnnie Henderson, the labor union, and employment wages Charles Doyle ; John Sealy Hospital ; Johnnie Henderson ; Mainland Hospital African Americans--Employment ; Labor unions ; Nursing 5123 Martin Luther King's death and racial tensions King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Race relations 5215 Final thoughts 5317 Conclusion Oral History Daisy Bell Buster talks about growing up in a family with seventeen children, her community, and attending Booker T. Washington School. She talks about visiting her grandparents in Louisiana and how her sister, Rose, was almost like another mother to her. She talks about the importance of attending the Methodist Church and taking part in the BYPU activities. She describes how Reverend Perry stood out in her memory as an influential preacher. Buster is a self-described tomboy and shares how she grew up boxing with her brothers in their own boxing ring. Buster tells how she joined the school choir and had the opportunity to sing at different venues around town. She also talks about her college aspirations and career goals growing up. Buster describes growing up in a segregated community and how Texas Avenue was the dividing line between her neighborhood and the rest of Texas City. She talks about her first time being confronted with racial discrimination. She talks about her role in a sit-in at the lunch counter at Weingarten’s. She tells of her experience with the 1947 Texas City Disaster, being separated from her family, and then finding them at Camp Wallace. She talks about being close to delivering her baby during Hurricane Carla. She talks about joining the NAACP, participating in civil rights protest marches, and voting. She discusses how the Church was integral in backing the message of civil rights and desegregation in the community. Buster also talks about the death of Martin Luther King, Jr., and the impact it had. MAYFIELD: Today is Wednesday, November tenth, and we are in Texas City, Texas in the Parks and Rec meeting room in the Nessler Building. This is Theresa Mayfield, the Local History Librarian with Moore Memorial Public Library. I&#039 ; m working on the African American Oral History Project, initiated by Moore Memorial Public Library to aid the African American community in building the historical narrative and to fill in the gap of the historical record. Today, we have the distinct pleasure of interviewing Daisy Belle Buster of Texas City. Daisy, it&#039 ; s a pleasure to see you today. Um, I&#039 ; d like to ask if you could introduce yourself, um, starting with &quot ; My name is and I was born in--&quot ; and then just start telling us a little bit about yourself. BUSTER: My name is Daisy Buster. I was born and raised in Texas City, Texas. And I&#039 ; ve been here all my life. I haven&#039 ; t been anywhere else. I come with my parents. And they all, um, um, both my parents came from Louisiana. My, my mother&#039 ; s from Franklin, Louisiana and my dad was from Jeanerette. Um, they&#039 ; re Oliver and Elnora Swan. MAYFIELD: What year did your family move to Texas City? BUSTER: Nineteen twenty-six. MAYFIELD: Nineteen twenty-six, okay. And when, and what year were you, what year were you born? BUSTER: September 21, 1938. MAYFIELD: Thirty-eight. Okay. And you said your family was originally from Louisiana? BUSTER: Right. MAYFIELD: Uh, do you have siblings? BUSTER: Yes, I do. MAYFIELD: How many siblings do you have? BUSTER: My bro--, --I have ten brothers and six sisters that lived, um, with us. Raised with us. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: My mother had eighteen children. My dad had two boys by his first wife. So, that&#039 ; s twenty of us. MAYFIELD: Twenty of you. That must have been exciting at dinner time. BUSTER: Very. Very. (laughs) MAYFIELD: (laughs) Um, so, uh, what was your family&#039 ; s economic  circumstances? With, with twenty children, you know, it must have been very interesting. BUSTER: Very interesting. Uh, my dad worked. He worked um, for Texas City, all around. And uh, he traveled. We, we traveled right around in the area. We lived there. And uh, he worked for quite a few people that you might would know. I remember, uh, Mr. R. M. Orth was one of our men that he worked for. Roy Campbell, which my brother Roy, is named after, after. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: Clarence Stoneburner, which my younger brother Clarence, is named after him. Very interesting. He traveled around, hauling garbage, cutting the yards and different things in the city. He worked the wharf, so, he was pretty busy and the boys worked with him. My brothers worked with him a lot. MAYFIELD: Oh, your brothers worked with him. BUSTER: Right. MAYFIELD: Uh, but you said, I think one time you mentioned that your father was a preacher. Is that correct?  BUSTER: Yeah, he was a preacher at the rest end of his life. He was a Mason-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --and a, a preacher, yeah. MAYFIELD: And what was your, --what did your mom do? BUSTER: My mother never worked. Um, just at home. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: With the children, you know. She never worked outside of the home, so. MAYFIELD: Well, that&#039 ; s a lot. And that could be enough, right? BUSTER: Yes. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: Yes, ma&#039 ; am. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Uh, do you ever remember when was tight in your family?  BUSTER: Oh, yes, yes. But my dad always made a way that my brothers, my brothers and sisters, everybody worked. We helped each other. So, we made it. We had a really good time. MAYFIELD: Yeah? BUSTER: Enjoyed life. And, just, there&#039 ; s just so much to do with a large family. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: Yeah, you know. So, we, we really had a good time, growing up. MAYFIELD: Did you have any other relatives living in Texas City also at the time? BUSTER: One time my, my oldest sister was living uh, next door.  MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: Uh, the next lot from us. And uh, that was all the grandchildren, nieces and nephews. They always come together. We always, --family always got together. MAYFIELD: What about um, your grandparents, uh-- BUSTER: My grandparents came here very seldom. We went to Louisiana quite a bit. Growing up I distinctly remember going to my grandmother&#039 ; s and sleeping overnight there. My grandmother was sitting in a chair like something like this-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --and we had the pallet on the floor because it was only a two-bedroom house. And uh, she watched over us while we slept (laughs) and wake up. MAYFIELD: Oh wow. BUSTER: Yes. MAYFIELD: She sounds like a, a wonderful lady. BUSTER: Yes, and she was a beautiful lady. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: And she was white and uh, my dad was Black, and uh-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: My grandfather was Black, my grandmother&#039 ; s white. MAYFIELD: What was your grandmother&#039 ; s name? BUSTER: Dora Adams. MAYFIELD: Dora Adams? BUSTER: Williams. She was a Williams. Dora Williams Adams. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Dora Williams Adams. Mm-hmm. And, um, how long were your grandparents married? BUSTER: I&#039 ; m not sure how long, but they were, I was smaller growing up. My grandmother died in, in &#039 ; 50--, 1954-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: But I don&#039 ; t really remember my grandfather dying. MAYFIELD: Okay. Okay. BUSTER: I remember him dying, but not the year and things like that. MAYFIELD: Um, did you uh, did you ever have, um, other contact with other relatives, like your aunts and uncles? BUSTER: My Aunts-- BUSTER: Yes. My aunt and my uncles, um. We gathered a lot. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: My dad&#039 ; s brothers, --so, and Aunts and cousins. We always, we were close, and we still are. (laughs) MAYFIELD: How many-- BUSTER: --Our family still are. MAYFIELD: How many brothers and sisters did your dad have? BUSTER: My dad had three brothers and one sister. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: And your mom? BUSTER: Miss, my, my mom had one sister. There&#039 ; s no brothers. Just one sister. MAYFIELD: My goodness.  BUSTER: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. MAYFIELD: They both come from a bit of a smaller family, right? BUSTER: Oh, yeah. (laughs) MAYFIELD: (laughs) Um, so, growing up, what was your address? BUSTER: I was born at 416 Fourth Avenue South. I can barely, barely remember the house. I know it was a two-story house. But I was raised at 404 Third Avenue South.  MAYFIELD: And how long did you live there? BUSTER: Um, when I left home at twenty-one, I stayed with my parents, until I was twenty-one years old. MAYFIELD: And how long was it from between when you moved from the 416th uh, four one six, you said four one six-- BUSTER: Four one six, Fourth Avenue. MAYFIELD: Fourth Avenue, right. How, um, how, how long did you um, live at the four one six Fourth Avenue? How-- BUSTER: I was still a small child so I couldn&#039 ; t, I don&#039 ; t really remember the date, but I was small and just remember living in a two-story house  and then growing up in the four-bedroom house. (laughs) MAYFIELD: In the four-bedroom house, a bigger house, right? BUSTER: (laughs) Yes. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: My dad had the four-bedroom house and a two-bedroom house on the-- MAYFIELD: --So, I imagine, BUSTER: --uh, the whole area. MAYFIELD: --that having eighteen to twenty brothers and sisters that it was just you guys in the house, right? Your, your, --you the kids and your parents. BUSTER: Yes. Sometimes the grandkids would come and stay, yeah. MAYFIELD: Sometimes the grandkids would come and stay-- BUSTER: --My mother had raised some of the grandkids. MAYFIELD: Oh, okay. BUSTER: Yeah, too, yeah. MAYFIELD: Um, so, where was your neighborhood located? What, what part of, of, so, uh, Fourth Avenue, you said? And-- BUSTER: Uh, huh, South. MAYFIELD: South and Third Avenue South. That&#039 ; s more on the east side of Texas City, right? BUSTER: That would be like the south side. We were one block from the plants. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: One block would be south, and then to the east was two blocks over. MAYFIELD: Okay. So, you-- BUSTER: Because the plants --Second [Ave] went into the plants and we had  stores and places on uh, Second Avenue before. So, we were just, we were right in the Texas City disaster. MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Okay. So, you, because you were so close to the uh-- BUSTER: Yes. Very close. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Uh, did your neighbors look after one another? BUSTER: It was just like a big family. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: Everybody helped one another. You know, we were kids playing, and if we did something wrong, the neighbors and everybody, they were our parents (laughs). You know, they say it takes a village to raise (laughs) children and we were that village. (laughs) MAYFIELD: You were that village. BUSTER: (laughs) MAYFIELD: I was just actually thinking of that quote, when-- BUSTER: Yeah, yeah, the neighbors were very, very concerned about children growing up and all and uh, they&#039 ; re very nice. MAYFIELD: Very nice neighbors? BUSTER: We had a good, --we had a large family, but we had a good time. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: I got raised a good time. My dad was kind of strict with  us, my mother, --but we were raised that way, you know. MAYFIELD: Yeah. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: It was good then. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Um. What was the racial make-up of your neighborhood? BUSTER: We only, --mostly all Black and a few Spanish, and that&#039 ; s all. Very few. And just in that area because, uh, the Medinas lived down on Second Avenue and um, uh, the Sitzbergers, and them lived down on Second, --they were raised, we were raised up. We were on Third, Fourth, Third Avenue and Fourth Street, and they were on Second and Second up in that area. MAYFIELD: Did they have a lot of kids too, I mean, they have kids too that you could play with? BUSTER: They didn&#039 ; t have a lot of lot of kids that I knew of. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: That I can remember. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: Yeah. But we were raised up together. Uh, Jimmy and Richard Medina, Robert and, the family. Medina, I said the Medina family was raised up. There were the ones closest to us. MAYFIELD: There were the closest to you guys? BUSTER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Um, did your neighborhood have a lot of social events? I  know that um, everybody was close, but-- BUSTER: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Not a, a lot. We had to um, liked to go, liked to go out in a park and the recreation. We&#039 ; d go to, Sanders Center was there for us to go to. And the pool and different, Wisby&#039 ; s ice cream parlor was there for us. We&#039 ; d leave church and we had the park. Sanders Center was our park that we&#039 ; d attend. So, it&#039 ; s very interesting, very nice. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: Very interesting. Yeah, you know. MAYFIELD: Seems like a really nice neighborhood to grow up in. BUSTER: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Everybody was like a big family. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: (laughs) Around there. MAYFIELD: So, what about holidays? Uh, were there any special holidays that you guys, --that you liked to celebrate? BUSTER: Well, we did Christmas, Thanksgiving, New Year&#039 ; s holidays. The Nineteenth of June. And, uh, mostly the traditional. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Did you have any traditional foods that you  would, uh-- BUSTER: Chicken. We didn&#039 ; t have the turkey as much till later, but ham, and one of the biggest dinner for, --I don&#039 ; t remember too much turkey, but unless we got, till we got older, you know. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: As growing up as, before the disaster, was mostly ham and chicken and, and the main basic, you know. MAYFIELD: So, it must be-- BUSTER: --Cakes and pies and things like that, we all-- MAYFIELD: So, it must be kind of interesting getting all of you around the table, right? BUSTER: Yes. (laughs) Oh yeah, my dad was very particular about that.  MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: We had to eat at the table, then we had to sit on the side of a big, long bench to listen to the Bible when he&#039 ; d read to us and everything. We were brought up with that, you know. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. He read the Bible to you guys at dinner time. BUSTER: Oh, yeah. He would go over the stories with the Bible. We, as young children, just felt like, oh, not again. (laughs) MAYFIELD: (laughs) BUSTER: And uh, we, he, --but that was the way we were raised. And hadn&#039 ; t gotten away from it. Quite a few of us still with it. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Oh, my. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Well, I know that we&#039 ; re-- BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: -- actually we&#039 ; re going to talk about religion right now. BUSTER: Uh, huh. MAYFIELD: Uh, uh, so, what church did you attend when you were young? BUSTER: We were raised, all seventeen of us, was raised up in Galilee Methodist Church. And that was on uh, Eighth, right off of Eighth and Second. MAYFIELD: Eighth and Second? BUSTER: Yeah. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: And, um, what influence do you think that your church had on you growing up? BUSTER: I, I really think that was the training and the meeting that we had and going to BYPU [Baptist Young People&#039 ; s Union], and the different activities had a lot of meaning for us. Letting us know that God is God and He is still in charge, you know. We were raised up with very little money, but we  still would go to church and I&#039 ; d pretty much go all day if my dad didn&#039 ; t take us. Mr. Henry would pick us up. Mr. Fuller would take us, and it was always like five or six of us going in, in that car, you know. (laughs) And they would, if, --they would pick us up and make sure we were there and bring us back home after church, you know. Very interesting, in, at that time, I guess I was more, because I was the secretary. It looked like everywhere that I went even at school, I was the secretary (laughs). So, it was very interesting and educational too. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: But they want us to know that what the Bible meant, to read and understand it. And that-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: This is where I got my reading. And I love to read, and I&#039 ; ve gone over the Bible from beginning to end, several times, so. And quite a few, and I got, a few, three preachers in uh, in the family, and deacons in the family, quite a bit. Ten brothers that uh, and six of them went to the service. And  real good. Had real interesting life. And they just taught us a little bit of everything that we need to grow up to learn. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: And uh, how we would live, you know, ourselves when we get older, you know. It&#039 ; s just like our teachers ; they made a way for us to understand. We had a lot of Black history that we had to learn. Had to learn (laughs) to see where we come from, our forefathers had done for us. Yeah. MAYFIELD: So, you, you, um, what was the age difference between the oldest child in your family and the youngest, because, you said that you would get driven to church, but I would imagine that um, there must of been a, a bit of an age gap-- BUSTER: --Well, the boys always can, when they got up, they would, on like, like on their own. Because, uh, then the girls and, and the younger boys always  rode in the car with, with my neighbor, my dad, my brother-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --somebody was always, you know. And if we didn&#039 ; t, we&#039 ; d walk you know-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --to church, because it was just not very far away at all, you know. MAYFIELD: How far was the church from your house? BUSTER: Like uh, we were, we were on Fourth Avenue, lived on Fourth Avenue and Third, --Fourth Street and Third Avenue, and the church was on Eighth and uh, uh Second Avenue. So, we just go a few blocks. MAYFIELD: Just a few blocks. BUSTER: Mm-hmm.  MAYFIELD: So, I mean, religion is, uh, uh, obviously so important to you and to your family-- BUSTER: Yes. Yes. MAYFIELD: --um, was there a pastor who uh, stood out to you as a child? BUSTER: Yes, as a young girl, Rev. Perryman was the pastor of the Methodist church. Of course, we all, --sometimes we didn&#039 ; t want to go there. We&#039 ; d leave there and go to Barbour&#039 ; s Chapel, which was Rev., uh, R. J. Scott. And then Rev. Johnson was at First Baptist. All three of the churches in a row. MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: Barbour&#039 ; s Chapel, First Baptist. Barbour&#039 ; s Chapel, the ice cream parlor, First Baptist, then the Methodist-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: -across the street. Barbour&#039 ; s was on Eighth Street-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: --you know. MAYFIELD: So, depending on what you wanted as you got older, you could go to any of those churches if you wanted-- BUSTER: --Yeah, oh, yeah. We could, we could always go, but you know, all, most of my friends went, when I didn&#039 ; t want to go to church, I would like to uh, go where my friends were. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: They were all at Baptist-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --most of them. So, when we leave that church we would go to the Baptist church, you know, well. And right now, I&#039 ; m Baptist. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Oh, you-- BUSTER: When I got to be twenty-one, I decided I&#039 ; m going to church when I get ready, and so I changed to Baptist, you know. MAYFIELD: Mmm, interesting. BUSTER: Yeah. And I&#039 ; m still there at the same church. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Did your family have any, uh, issues with you changing religion? BUSTER: No. Uh-huh. No. It was you know. When we, when we get eighteen, nineteen, well, you&#039 ; re on your own pretty much. You know. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: Even though I started work at eleven years old babysitting at  my sister&#039 ; s Rose place, and I stayed with them until I was graduated from high school. MAYFIELD: Mmm. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Okay.  BUSTER: I worked, I worked for the O. R. Snarr. MAYFIELD: What was that? BUSTER: O. R. Snarr was the family that I worked for, the Snarr family. MAYFIELD: Oh. When you were babysitting at eleven-- BUSTER: --Eleven years old. And I stayed there until I graduated from high school, you know. MAYFIELD: My goodness. BUSTER: Mm-hmm.  MAYFIELD: That&#039 ; s a very long time. BUSTER: Yeah. Beautiful family, too. MAYFIELD: Yeah? BUSTER: Even the girls now and boys now, still beautiful family. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Did you, --you said that, um, you know, -- so again, the church was so important to you, what, uh, social groups or events did the church have for, um, the young people? BUSTER: We had the choir, and, uh, I was an usher on the usher board. Uh, we helped children, the smaller children, and usher board and choir practice and different activities the church put on. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: We would go to other, --visit other churches, you know. MAYFIELD: You mentioned BYPU? BUSTER: Baptist Youth, uh-huh. It&#039 ; s a, a good way, that students would, not students. You would meet, the children would meet and, and go over the Bible-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --different section of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. It&#039 ; d just depend on what subject we going into. MAYFIELD: So, like Bible school, I guess? BUSTER: Bible, like Bible studies. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: Yeah, and we still do Bible studies. You know. MAYFIELD: So-- BUSTER: --But it was called BYPU [Baptist Young People&#039 ; s Union]. Mostly youth, uh-huh. MAYFIELD: What does it stand for? BUSTER: Baptist Youth. Oh, Baptist Youth, oh, um, Union, I&#039 ; ve forgotten now. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. (laughs) BUSTER: I shouldn&#039 ; t have. Don&#039 ; t let my pastor know that I&#039 ; ve forgotten that.(laughs) BYPU. We&#039 ; d go to Bible studies and a lot of activities. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: Sunday school was on Sundays, you know, evening. So, there  was a lot of activities for us. And even more so at my church now because the, the Methodist church was somewhat different from the Baptist, you know. It was much smaller, and we were most of the children there. Our family being larger. And then our friends was over at the Barbour&#039 ; s at the Baptist church, you know. MAYFIELD: So, you had most of your friends were at the Baptist church? BUSTER: Oh, so, yes. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Okay. I see. BUSTER: Yeah. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Uh, so, can you share a little about your educational experience? And you were talking about where you went to school. Where-- BUSTER: Uh-huh. MAYFIELD: What was the name of the school that you went to. BUSTER: I went to Booker T. Washington. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: And graduated from there an honor student. And uh, very active in sports-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --and all the sports and uh, I was involved in so many. I don&#039 ; t know how we did it, but we did it. I loved school and didn&#039 ; t want to quit. As a matter of fact, when I graduated, I just cried because I wasn&#039 ; t ready (laughs) to graduate. MAYFIELD: Well-- BUSTER: But um, I was in so much, so much, so many activities. At home it was different because you go home and do your homework and do your work. But at school, you&#039 ; ve got different activities. I sung in the choir. The glee club was something I was very interested in. I, I even boxed at home with my brothers. I had ten brothers, so if they all box so, (laughs) I was the tomboy of the family and I boxed. And I still like boxing. And-- MAYFIELD: And you-- BUSTER: I still like to punch a bag. MAYFIELD: I think you mentioned something about having a boxing ring in your house? BUSTER: No. At the yard. We had a big house and a big yard, you know, area come from the street to the alley. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: Well, the whole side was a boxing ring. Where everybody would come to box. And uh, from all, everywhere around. All of my brothers boxed you know.  MAYFIELD: Did any of the girls&#039 ; box with you? I mean-- BUSTER: Just me. I was--- MAYFIELD: Just you. BUSTER: --the only tomboy (laughs) in the family. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BUSTER: Yeah, I love it though. Yeah. MAYFIELD: So, where was Booker T. Washington located? BUSTER: Uh, seven and 702 Second Avenue, uh, uh, South. MAYFIELD: Second Avenue South. BUSTER: Everything South. Mm-hmm.  MAYFIELD: And-- BUSTER: And uh, and it&#039 ; s on Eighth and Tenth Street. Eighth, Ninth, and Tenth Street. Yeah. MAYFIELD: It was on Eighth, Ninth, and Tenth Street? BUSTER: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. No, Eighth and, uh, Seventh and Eighth Street was the main, because the gym was on Seventh and -- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --the school was on Eighth and the Sanders Center and all. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Uh, so, how did you get to school?  BUSTER: We walked. MAYFIELD: You walked? How long did it take you? BUSTER: We didn&#039 ; t have, we didn&#039 ; t have buses. Oh, not very long. We weren&#039 ; t very far from school at all. We lived on Third Avenue, the school was Second, the school was on Second Avenue South, and we were on Third Avenue South. Uh, and then we were on Fourth and the school was right on Eighth, the  corner of Eighth there. Four blocks. I&#039 ; d say four blocks, maybe. MAYFIELD: Um, that&#039 ; s not too bad, four blocks. BUSTER: Yeah. Yeah. It didn&#039 ; t take long to get there. Just go straight up the road-- MAYFIELD: Yeah-- BUSTER: --from my house. Yeah. MAYFIELD: So, after school you did a lot of, um, school activities? BUSTER: Right. We had, --I played softball, basketball. I ran track. I played tennis. I did broad jumping, pole vaulting. (laughs) I threw the baseball. Threw the discus. And we just, --s, much to do. I mean, I was involved in so much, that&#039 ; s-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --why I didn&#039 ; t want to leave school. I felt like all my fun would be gone. MAYFIELD: Oh, well, were you the only tomboy out of all your sisters? BUSTER: I, I was the worst one anyway. (laughs) MAYFIELD: The worst one? BUSTER: I had another sister that was a little bit more active, but I wasn&#039 ; t a doll person. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: You know, one, you know. Uh, my dad only got me one doll, that I know, growing up. And uh, I put a rope around its neck and threw it in the  ceiling and put my boxing gloves on. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BUSTER: He said, &quot ; You won&#039 ; t get another doll&quot ; , (laughs) you know, from what I did to it. MAYFIELD: I learned my lesson. BUSTER: It was an ugly ragdoll-- MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: --in the first place. (laughs) I never did dolls much growing up -- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --I did marbles and then whatever the boys played, I played. (laughs) Yeah. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. So, you were pretty active in school-- BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: --but what was your favorite subject in school? BUSTER: Oh, I liked history. My, my favorite teacher was uh, Aurilla Beavers was her name. Very good historian. She wanted us to know, growing up, all of the Black history going up. The pictures: we have walls of pictures and all. And I just loved that she was a good teacher too. And I just loved my history program. Yeah. MAYFIELD: What was her first name? BUSTER: My name? MAYFIELD: No. Your, your history teacher&#039 ; s first name? BUSTER: Aurilla Beavers MAYFIELD: Aurilla Beavers-- BUSTER: --A-r-i-l-l -a, A-u-r-i-l-l-a I think it is. I need to look that  up. I should have looked that up. Very good. -- MAYFIELD: --What grade did she teach?  BUSTER: Oh, god, let&#039 ; s see. She was our history teacher, I was, started there. We used to call prima-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --before we uh, went to the first grade. By me--, my birthday, being September twenty-first, I had to wait a year because we had to be six by the first of September. MAYFIELD: Hmm. BUSTER: And mine came the twenty-first, so that kind of, --I thought, put me behind at the time, because I wanted to go to school. But um, her name was Aurilla, uh, Beavers. Mm-hmm. And, Mrs., we have uh, Calvin Vincent was our principal and after Vin--, Ethel B. Vincent was our, was one of my teachers. Miss McClure was one of my teachers. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: Mr. Carter, Thomas F. Carter was our coach and teacher, English, coach and teacher. And he made sure that every T was crossed and every I  was dot. Very particular about that. Mr. Godfrey, Tom, um, Iverson Godfrey was our coach and teacher, math teacher also. Mr. Worsham was chemistry. So, it was very interesting. MAYFIELD: What was his name? Mr.? BUSTER: Worsham MAYFIELD: Worsham? BUSTER: W-o-r-s-h-a-m. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Hmm. BUSTER: Yeah. He was uh, our chemistry teacher. MAYFIELD: Okay. BUSTER: So, that was it. And my sports teachers. Jesse James McFarland was my band director, and he was our choir director. We had the, um, his son, --the Glee Cub was, uh, we sung around different places in town. And we were music, and um. MAYFIELD: You guys had an opportunity to go to different venues and, and sing for the school? BUSTER: We sung at Sam Pickwick&#039 ; s Café was one of our main, that we sung at, with what we eat. Of course, we had to go through the back door because everything was segregated at that time. MAYFIELD: Oh, okay. BUSTER: And uh, we sung around and different activities at school, and wherever they wanted the Glee club was called in. And-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Now what was the name of that place you just mentioned that you-- BUSTER: Sam Pickwick&#039 ; s right there on Texas Avenue where, right now where Matthew&#039 ; s is. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: We, we had to go to through the back door, through the alley to go into the place. But we sung there, --I know there was eating. I don&#039 ; t know where the front part was, but-- MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: --but uh, we sung there, oh, quite a bit. Often. Wherever they wanted the Glee Club to sing, you know.  MAYFIELD: Where else did you guys have an opportunity to sing? BUSTER: To eat? MAYFIELD: To sing. BUSTER: Oh, to sing. Well, you know, naturally we had choir practice all the time and then school activities. And we used to go down Sixth Street and it was like, uh, where we had a school closing program, where we had programs, we always sang there. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: You know. It was just interesting-- MAYFIELD: --I&#039 ; m just tired thinking about everything that you did  when, when you were in school. BUSTER: (laughs) I don&#039 ; t know how I did it. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BUSTER: That&#039 ; s why. I don&#039 ; t know where all the pictures are, but I do have some of them, you know. (laughs)Yeah. MAYFIELD: So, so, who had the most influence on you as a teacher? BUSTER: Mr. Godfrey. He was a very, he was coach and math teacher. But he was very, very strict with us, you know. Well, all of us, pretty strict, but. He had us to really understand why he was doing this. Mr. Carter was pretty good at, --I&#039 ; m doing this now because when you grow up, I can remember him and Miss Beavers always saying, well, when you grow up, you&#039 ; re going to need this. And that&#039 ; s what I liked. Our teachers put things that we would need growing up in life. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: And I always remember them as telling me that, you know. With English, Mr. Carter were very, very good in English. Very, very good in English,  you know. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Uh, so, can you tell me a little bit about your, um college aspirations? BUSTER: I always wanted to, uh, go to college. And, and when I did graduate, even though I was an honor student, I only graduated with a, a scholarship of seventy-five dollars to go to Hutson-Tillotson. And that was what I had really planned. But when, when we come out to fill out my application, my mother was, you know, my mother and father really couldn&#039 ; t, uh. But my sister Rose was going to try to send me. And then, after that, I met my, my husband and I decided, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to work&quot ; , you know. So, when I graduated on May 28, I saw my sister, because the other day, it said &quot ; May 29th.&quot ; But in August, there was August the fourth, I went to John Sealy and worked as an aide. Ninety-seven cents an hour.  That&#039 ; s what I-- MAYFIELD: --Ninety-seven cents an hour?  BUSTER: -- an hour, Mm-hmm, at John Sealy. And I worked there. I loved it. John Sealy trained you a lot at nurse&#039 ; s aide. We had all type of training that I wanted, because growing up I always said I was going to be a nurse. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: And so, I worked all my life around the hospitals, so. And uh, so I worked there until &#039 ; 64 after my youngest child was born, Robert. I decided to go to County because I got tired of driving back to Galveston with the bad weather and the traffic and all. And so I went to County Memorial and, and I worked there from &#039 ; 64 to &#039 ; 71. MAYFIELD: Where&#039 ; s County Memorial? BUSTER: Galveston County Memorial. MAYFIELD: Okay. BUSTER: It&#039 ; s still there. MAYFIELD: Okay. BUSTER: But it changed so many names, you know. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: Yeah. And I worked there till &#039 ; 71. I went out during the strike. We had a strike there and I never did go back to work permanently. I worked weekends-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --or if someone was off or something like that. And I worked  registrar, so I did a lot of private duty, you know. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: So, I stayed in working in nursing homes all around instead of just going. And then finally, I said, &quot ; Well, I don&#039 ; t know anything but nursing.&quot ; I don&#039 ; t have no other field, uh, to go, so I decided to go to College of the Mainland. And (laughs) and I did office procedures there. So, went through that and my second semester, I got a call from my sister-in-law saying, &quot ; How would you like to work at First American Title doing the same thing that you&#039 ; re doing, learning in college, and we&#039 ; ve got on the job training.&quot ; So, I-- MAYFIELD: --What year was that? BUSTER: That was uh, in, I went there in &#039 ; 78, I think it was. And uh, no, because they have four years, so it must have been before &#039 ; 78. But I went there and worked there until they closed. And they closed in &#039 ; 80. So, and worked there and did learn a lot of office procedures. So, when they  closed in &#039 ; 80, I went to Texas City of Texas City, May eighth of 1980-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --and worked there for twenty years. Yeah. Yeah MAYFIELD: You&#039 ; ve had a long legacy. BUSTER: (laughs) Yeah, interesting. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: But I loved it, you know. I loved working. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: I love working with people, but, at the hospital it was just mostly mothers and babies, nursery, some labor and delivery. But that&#039 ; s all I knew, was mothers and babies. I even worked part-time at the uh, telephone, GTE Telephone in Dickinson. And while I&#039 ; m sitting on the toll board, I could hear babies crying, so it took me like, a long time to get rid of, not hearing them in the din with the babies-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --you know and mothers, you know. It was really interesting. MAYFIELD: Not, no matter what job you went into there was maybe, mothers and babies somewhere (laughs). BUSTER: Yeah. Looked like everywhere. Then I end up nursing a lot of the nurse--, I worked at every nursing home they had around here-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --except the one on Twenty-fifth. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --where now, that&#039 ; s the only one I didn&#039 ; t work at. Because I had three children, I was going to, --went to, went to college and money was tight, so my husband worked at, --when he left Todd&#039 ; s Shipyard, he went to the plant. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: And there was starting to move, getting better. Things were getting a little bit better because it was pretty tight with three kids. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: And uh, not really making that much money, you know. MAYFIELD: What plant did he work for? BUSTER: Amoco. MAYFIELD: Amoco. BUSTER: My husband worked for Amoco. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Um, let&#039 ; s see. So, let&#039 ; s talk about your spare time. (laughs) BUSTER: Well, I didn&#039 ; t (laughs) MAYFIELD: When you were younger, you know, what did you do in your spare time? BUSTER: Well, it, it, before I got married and had the kids, well I, I liked singing and dancing. Uh, I loved my dancing and loved singing. Loved music to this day. And uh, we&#039 ; d go to the park and the swimming pool was open.  And tennis, I played tennis in school. Even went to state with tennis too.  MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: And uh, went, go to, we had to go to Nessler Center to the tennis, --out here at the Nessler Center [Points behind her]--MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --to, uh, to play tennis and I enjoyed that. Really did. But one time, growing up younger, we weren&#039 ; t allowed to, well, I won&#039 ; t say allowed, but we, if you, if you were to cross Texas Ave divided the Black from the white, you know. So, that was when you go across Texas Ave you almost had to fight, (laughs) you know, at sometimes. It was very, very strict, you know. MAYFIELD: By how, uh, what do you mean by you almost had to fight. What does that mean? BUSTER: Well, somebody always was pick or something, you know, try to fight or something. When you, --because you&#039 ; re not supposed to be on Texas, on the north side of Texas Avenue. That divided us. Yeah. From the-- MAYFIELD: What, what years, like, was that, that you noticed that? BUSTER: Oh, God, I was eight years old in, when Texas City disaster  and I remember that because you could, we could walk from our house to Pick-and-Pay. I don&#039 ; t really remember where Pic-&amp ; -Pac was, but you know, we always could walk there. And we could walk to Texas Theater, you know, and places like that, but you know, there was always somebody ready. You&#039 ; re not supposed to over there, you know. So that, that&#039 ; s the way we came up. But we were taught to, you know, just do what we were supposed to and be fair and honest and come on back home, you know. MAYFIELD: So, no one ever worked on the north side of Texas Avenue? BUSTER: My sister, Rose worked. My, my dad worked all over Texas City. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: I mean, he worked for all the, all the richest people, I say in Texas City, to us, they were rich. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: And uh, and that&#039 ; s where he made money. Driving and doing, hauling, and working, --he worked in the plant. As a matter of fact, he was supposed to be at the plant when Texas City disaster-- MAYFIELD: --Happened. BUSTER: --he was supposed to be there, but he didn&#039 ; t get picked to work, you know. So, they come back home, him and my brother. Yeah. MAYFIELD: I guess that would be like a, uh, you know, I guess a blessing, right? Because-- BUSTER: Oh, yeah. It was a blessing. In school just before graduation, um, Weingarten&#039 ; s was where, uh, Food King is now, it used to be a Weingarten&#039 ; s, but we couldn&#039 ; t sit at the counter. So, I&#039 ; ve always been in the union, uh, when Johnnie Henderson was our leader, then. MAYFIELD: Oh, before you talk about that, I want to hold off on that-- BUSTER: Okay. MAYFIELD: --because we will talk about that. BUSTER: Okay. MAYFIELD: I really want to get into that a little bit deeper with you. BUSTER: Okay. Alright. MAYFIELD: Um, but so, um, you did a lot in your spare time and-- BUSTER: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: --uh, who were your best friends growing up? BUSTER: I had, uh, Barbara Caldwell, was, we grew up together, uh, closely. She was in La Marque, but we knew each other. And I had Bobbie Hawkins, she was a Hawkins, she&#039 ; s a Stevens now. And Thelma Hawkins, we were all close, we  even ran track, baseball. We did all the sports together-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --you know, so. So, it was just like sisters in the family. And--  MAYFIELD: Some, well, what did you guys do together then? BUSTER: Other than our sports at school? MAYFIELD: Yeah, other than sports at school. BUSTER: Yeah. We would go down to Wisby&#039 ; s ice cream parlor, --down sometime to the dike or something like that, and. Most everything was walking, we walked everywhere-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --we really didn&#039 ; t do driving like that, like the children do now. (laughs) You know. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: But we did a lot, you know. We had a lot of activities. There was something to do all the time. Be in, never get in trouble, or anything like, you know. We would go to the theater. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Did you have to be home by a certain time? BUSTER: Oh, yeah. We had to be home before dark. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Oh, before dark. BUSTER: And we go anywhere at night, you had to be home before twelve [laughs]. MAYFIELD: Oh, okay, right. (laughs) BUSTER: Yeah. (laughs) Oh, yeah. MAYFIELD: That&#039 ; s right. Uh, so, uh, you, what did you do on the  weekends for fun as you were growing up? BUSTER: It was just like going down to the parlor, or park, Sanders Center, or the pool. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: Practice. If we weren&#039 ; t in school. We were so busy in school ; everything was kind of right there for us to do. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: So, like Bobbie and I, we were cheer leaders, and we ran track, we played baseball, softball, you know. It was just a lot you could do and then my family, all the guys usually boxed all the time, so-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --there was always people there, you know, so.  MAYFIELD: There was a lot of people at your house? BUSTER: A lot of people, yes. MAYFIELD: All the time. BUSTER: But the men boxed mostly, you know, because there wasn&#039 ; t to many women. I had to box with the guys because there was no women boxers. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Oh, my goodness. Learn how to duck, right? (laughs)  BUSTER: My brother, Thomas, taught me. (laughs) Yeah, he taught me to box. How to defend yourself, going to do this, you know.  MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: And I liked the punching bag, like that, and all [mimics using small punching bag]. MAYFIELD: How old was Thomas? BUSTER: I really couldn&#039 ; t say, because he was, you know, the oldest one always looked after the younger ones-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --and helped with anything, buy clothes, shoes, whatever you needed. Rose, my sister Rose, took care of us, really, you know, like, when my mother never could went out couldn&#039 ; t-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: -- she was at home all the time, but-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --she made sure that we had everything we needed for school, you know. MAYFIELD: How much older was Rose than you? BUSTER: She&#039 ; s about eight years older. I was, um, I think she&#039 ; s eight years older than I am. MAYFIELD: Eight years older? BUSTER: I&#039 ; m the eleventh child. MAYFIELD: You&#039 ; re the eleventh child. Oh, my goodness. Okay. BUSTER: And she&#039 ; s, uh, she must be the seventh, sixth or seventh. Because Thomas was the seventh, we always said &quot ; Seven-eleven&quot ; , so he was the seventh. Rose was older than him-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: --so, the next oldest one now. But she took care of us, you know. She&#039 ; d fill in where my mother didn&#039 ; t, you know. Well, everybody helped the other one. You know, the young ones. MAYFIELD: So, the older ones just kind of trickled down-- BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: --you know, and that just-- BUSTER: They worked, and they helped, you know, whatever we needed-- MAYFIELD: --they worked, and they helped with the next group of kids-- BUSTER: Right. MAYFIELD: --that came around. BUSTER: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Yes. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Yep. I can that would, how that would be, uh, I mean, a necessary thing, right? BUSTER: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.  MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: Yeah, because money was tight. When it&#039 ; s tight, the boys worked with my dad a lot. And, uh, so, we made it. MAYFIELD: Yes. BUSTER: We didn&#039 ; t go hungry. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Well, you said, you mentioned going to the theater. What was the name of the theater that you went to?  BUSTER: It was called Texas Theater. That&#039 ; s the only one we could go to. We couldn&#039 ; t go to the Showboat until later in the years we did. But growing, up, the Texas Theater was the one we-- MAYFIELD: How much, how much were tickets? BUSTER: Fifteen cents is what we paid for going in the movies. MAYFIELD: That sounds like a pretty good deal. BUSTER: (laughs) It was. Yes, ma&#039 ; am. It was very good. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: Yeah. It was fifteen cents. MAYFIELD: Do you remember what year you started going to the Showboat, where you could? BUSTER: I was a little bit older. I was in the disaster at eight  years old, so it was after the Texas City disaster, because we went to, um, I&#039 ; m not very sure of the age. Let me think about that. Yeah. I know I was in the, uh, we were in high school when we went to, uh, to be served at Weingarten&#039 ; s. I, we were, I was in High School then. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Okay. BUSTER: So, it was in between, in that, somewhere in there. MAYFIELD: In between there? BUSTER: Mm-hmm. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Okay. Well, we&#039 ; ll talk about that in a little bit more then. BUSTER: Okay. MAYFIELD: Um, what about restaurants? Did you guys ever get chances, with a big family, right, go to restaurants? BUSTER: My sister worked at, um, I can&#039 ; t think of the name of the, a place on Sixth Street. They served food. She worked there. But we never, uh, just go and sit, in a, growing up (unintelligible) just go in a sit. We could go and order, you know, food, from--. And Sam Pickwick was one of them. And Agee&#039 ; s  was another one that we could go and order food. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.  BUSTER: Could not sit at the counter or nothing like that. But we could order food, yeah, you know. MAYFIELD: So, there were no restaurants in Texas City that you could just go-- BUSTER: --Terrace Drive-In. It was, a better one than, because it wasn&#039 ; t so hard to go, but you could still order your food and eat and leave. MAYFIELD: Oh, I see. BUSTER: Terrace Drive-In was there too, with us, you know. MAYFIELD: Okay. So, did your dad own a car growing up? BUSTER: A car and a truck. MAYFIELD: A car and a truck? BUSTER: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: What kind of car and truck did he have? BUSTER: The car, I, was a Pontiac and the truck was a Studebaker, I think it was. MAYFIELD: A Studebaker? BUSTER: (laughs) The Studebaker&#039 ; s all I can remember. One of them he had to [makes cranking motion with hand]. And I used to love to do it. MAYFIELD: You had to crank the car-- BUSTER: --Wind it, crank it up. That was with the, yeah. It was a, was  a, it might have been the Pontiac. I can&#039 ; t really remember. But we had, yes, one of them we had to go and turn. I used to get out there and turn. He taught me how to change a tire and do a lot of things. And, we had a lot, --he had a lot of guns. He showed us how to take them lose and clean them and all. But he didn&#039 ; t let us handle very much, but he would show us how. MAYFIELD: Did he ever take you hunting? BUSTER: Oh, we used to go hunting a lot, -- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: --uh, you know, when older, a little bit older, you know. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: Before, you know. They went hunting. The guys always hunting, and fishing. My brothers fished a lot, -- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: --you know. Yeah. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Did you like hunting? BUSTER: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I like guns. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Well, okay. What kind of things did you, um, uh, go hunting for? BUSTER: Well, then, and I wouldn&#039 ; t do it now, but there&#039 ; s squirrels and, and ducks, and birds. Now, now I love the birds (laughs) and the squirrels and things. But that&#039 ; s what I used to go hunting with. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: The guys would go out there heavier, but I, I stayed with the small items. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Yeah, small items. BUSTER: --you know, yeah. MAYFIELD: You did a lot. BUSTER: Oh, yeah. MAYFIELD: A lot of stuff outdoors. BUSTER: I loved it. MAYFIELD: Yeah. BUSTER: And I still like the outdoors, yeah. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. And-- BUSTER: --I&#039 ; m still on the treadmill and walking and everything. I&#039 ; m slower now, but I&#039 ; m still walking. Thank God. MAYFIELD: Yeah, and you don&#039 ; t have a walker or anything, so that&#039 ; s fantastic. BUSTER: Well, I don&#039 ; t know, I may be getting there. It seems like now, sometimes I want those. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BUSTER: I&#039 ; m eighty-three now. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Well, you don&#039 ; t look it. I wouldn&#039 ; t--the camera should tell you ; you don&#039 ; t look it. Um, so I have a question. So, when, so, your father drove the car? BUSTER: Uh-huh. MAYFIELD: And did your brothers get a chance to drive the car? BUSTER: My, yes, they drove, too. And then-- MAYFIELD: And your sisters? BUSTER: And then they got their own cars. They each got their own cars later, when they got up. My brothers, Thomas and Edward, taught us, the girls. I was twelve. We always, we always had this thing, twelve years old we&#039 ; re going to teach you how to drive. And I do that with my, I done that with my  kids, now my grandkids, great grandkids. Uh, they taught us how to drive. We used to go up, we used to call the dump. Where Sixth Street ends at, go-around. MAYFIELD: Are you talking about-- BUSTER: Bay Street go around? MAYFIELD: Yes. Yes. BUSTER: It was called the Dump at that time. And uh, The Sprys, the Blues, we called them Blues. They lived out there. That&#039 ; s the next largest family. But we were the largest family in Texas City. And uh, we would go out there and drive, and drive, you know, because they wouldn&#039 ; t turn us loose in town nowhere like this. (laughs) MAYFIELD: You, you needed some space to learn how to drive, right? BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: My brother, Thomas, was really, he taught me to box and to drive. MAYFIELD: He had a lot of influence on you. BUSTER: Well, it was, it was the old shift and I, I don&#039 ; t like shift. Have to learn on. That&#039 ; s what I learned on ; you know. MAYFIELD: Oh, how-- BUSTER: Stick shift. MAYFIELD: --it was stick shift. Yeah. BUSTER: Yeah. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Yeah. Stick shift. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: It makes it a little more challenging to drive, right? BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: When you&#039 ; re twelve years old. (laughs) BUSTER: Oh, it was exciting. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Yeah. I can imagine. I wish I was twelve years old, learning how to drive (Buster laughs). BUSTER: Oh, yeah. MAYFIELD: So, if the car broke down, where did you take it? BUSTER: My brother and my dad always were mechanics. We&#039 ; ve got quite a few mechanics in the family, you know. MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: They always, I never remember them taking them to anyone because they did their own work. My dad was good, pretty good at it, you know. And my brother Thomas was good. He could fix anything, look like, you know. You know. MAYFIELD: Were all the children born in the house? BUSTER: I&#039 ; m sorry. MAYFIELD: Were all the children born in your house? BUSTER: No, the oldest, of four, the oldest one was in Louisiana. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: And Ell, Elliot, Elias was in San Antonio. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: And the rest was in here, in Texas City, in Galveston. MAYFIELD: So, were you born in a hospital? Were you born in your home? Or? BUSTER: I was born in the hospital. MAYFIELD: You were born in a hospital. All of you? BUSTER: No. Some were born at home. Dr. Twidwell was our doctor. MAYFIELD: Dr. Twidwell? BUSTER: He grew up with us, uh huh. With all the whole family, you know. But some of us were born in the hospital. I think my brother, Herbert, in the hospital. I don&#039 ; t know who all was born at home. Have to look back at, I got the birth certificate, and death certificate. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: I&#039 ; ve got them at the house, too. (laughs) Yes, sir. MAYFIELD: What about, uh, local news or national news. Where did you get your, your news from? BUSTER: Mostly, when it used to be the radio. That&#039 ; s all we could to listen to the radio, music and everything. Later on, uh, my dad got a TV they bought from Mr. Busbee&#039 ; s. Well, that was exciting, you know. MAYFIELD: How old were you when you had a TV? BUSTER: Um, I want to say around the sixth or seventh grade, somewhere years old, something in that area. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: Because uh-- MAYFIELD: --Sixth or seventh grade or six or seven years-- BUSTER: Six or seven years, somewhere in there. MAYFIELD: Oh. Okay. BUSTER: There seems like it was, uh, in that age group, you know. I  was eight when the Texas City disaster-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: --and we had a TV then. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Well, we&#039 ; re going to talk about that in a minute. Um. BUSTER: Okay. MAYFIELD: The Texas City disaster and, and sort of other events-- BUSTER: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: -- and disasters in, in Texas City. Um, but, so, everybody in your neighborhood knew everybody. So, -- BUSTER: Oh, yes. MAYFIELD: -- did you keep your doors unlocked in your neighborhood? BUSTER: We never did lock up very much. Once in a while if we were going out of town or something like that. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: We never did lock very much, lock up the doors. MAYFIELD: Well, when you&#039 ; re home right-- BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: --everyone&#039 ; s kind of coming and going? Mm-hmm. BUSTER: Mm-hmm. And I started doing that when I got married because I, you better lock your doors. It took me a while to do that, too. To lock my doors and-- MAYFIELD: --Oh because you weren&#039 ; t used to it. BUSTER: --when I --when I left home, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. MAYFIELD: So, you mentioned the disaster when you were eight years old. BUSTER: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Um, do you remember where you were at the time that it happened? BUSTER: I was dressed for school. I went to school a half of day. Twelve o&#039 ; clock. And already was dressed, you know. I loved school. And when the fire started, me and my mother and my baby brother was out, went out to the door, standing in the door. And uh, and if you can say that the fire was beautiful, it had a golden, pretty fire, but it was at first, you know. Then all of a sudden, it got real dark. And then the boom. And somehow or another, my mother was trying to hold me, my baby brother was knocked behind the refrigerator, --had a ice box on the porch. So, he was, I found him behind there. I got away from my mom and ran out the back door. I jumped across a wooden stove and a cabinet with the dishes there that fell over the stove. So, I jumped across that, went out the backdoor and just started running. Down the street, Third Avenue.  And uh, somehow or another it looked like a bale of hay was coming towards me, so I was trying to run and get out of the way of that. I don&#039 ; t know what it was, but it just, in the air it look like a bale of hay -- MAYFIELD: --the twine that was, I guess there was twine of some sort. BUSTER: -- but it just-- in the air it look like a bale of hay. I never did know what it was, but. And I grabbed my, uh, my neighbor&#039 ; s car door. And when I opened the door, he said, &quot ; Get in!&quot ; I opened the door, and my niece was in there, Ella, was in that car. And we were going down Sixth Street and my sister Rose worked at one of the cafes on Sixth Street. And passed her and I said, &quot ; There&#039 ; s my sister&quot ; and he says, he, uh, &quot ; come on and get in the car&quot ; , she said, &quot ; No, I&#039 ; m going to find Mama.&quot ; And that&#039 ; s the last we saw of her because he drove onto Dickinson School. We went to school to stay there for few days. Exactly, I didn&#039 ; t know how many days, but when they started putting everybody in place, my family was at Camp Wallace. MAYFIELD: Okay. So, you were in the Dickinson school. So, you guys  are separated? BUSTER: Yeah. We were all, all separated. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Okay. So, your family went to Camp Wallace. BUSTER: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: And, and then you were in Dickinson School? BUSTER: No, me and my sister. No, I was, me and my niece went with Mr. Milton, Dave Milton. We went with, in his, their car, and they drove there. We met up with my sister Gerrie and, uh, one, my brother didn&#039 ; t count(?)(?). So, they took us, when they took us out of there after a few days, they took us to Camp Wallace. So, we were all in line, when they got to us in line, and they asked us our name, and we started telling them Swan. They said, &quot ; Oh, we got some Swans in sixteen.&quot ; Sixteen was one of the buildings. So, they took us to there. And there was my mom and dad. My brother was in the hospital with glass in his eye. Edward, my brother, Edward was there. And uh, those are the ones I can remember that was there. So, that&#039 ; s how they got together. Then find out we  all, everybody was safe. My mother got hit in the head with something. And my brother got glass in his eye, but he was in the hospital. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: He stayed in there. So, that was all, oh, thank God, with all of us. And there was nine of us in school at one time. And so, with all of us, and we were, we were blessed. God was looking after us. And, the house didn&#039 ; t get torn down, blown down, but the windows and everything was out. Something came through the roof, and I don&#039 ; t know exactly what that was. But, and we, my dad was already building a house in Dickinson at the time, so they just went out and finished building, put the windows in, and everything. And that&#039 ; s where we stayed for a couple of years. MAYFIELD: Okay. So right during that, right after the, uh, the disaster, your dad had the house in Dickinson, so you just moved over there? BUSTER: Yeah. We just moved over there. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: And that&#039 ; s where my younger sister was born, in Dickinson. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: In 1947. May 12, 1947. MAYFIELD: What was Camp Wallace like? BUSTER: It was a lot of soldiers. And of course, they had food, that big camping, you know. A lot of people there, from everywhere. And uh, a lot of soldiers, I remember, you know, that helped us with everything. I don&#039 ; t remember how long we stayed there. Yeah. Because my dad, um, with the kids, my dad helped the uh, people, that some of them got hurt, they used his truck to, yeah, help take people to the doctor. And, and-- MAYFIELD: --Oh. So, your dad acted like an ambulance to take people-- BUSTER: Yeah. He was there. -- MAYFIELD: --to the doctors if they were hurt? BUSTER: Yep. Yeah. Cleaned up. Whatever needed to be done because that was what he was doing anyway, before. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: You know. Yeah. MAYFIELD: I&#039 ; m sure your mother must have been so overjoyed at the fact that you walked through that door. BUSTER: Oh, yeah. We, we thought, --we didn&#039 ; t know where they were, I mean, because everything was leveled around there. MAYFIELD: Did anyone explain to you what happened, I mean, like knowing that it blew up, of course, but did anyone ever explain to you what, what was really happening, or what had really happened-- BUSTER: --They uh, well they talked about it in school and, at, in Camp Wallace, they talked about it. Uh, tell us what, you know, what was going on and all. The ship and all that. But, our family never would discuss it. It was like a nightmare. You didn&#039 ; t even want to think about it. It was really horrible, really. And, the first time, uh, that I did talk about it when Channel 2 [KPRC] came to City Hall, and, um, they made a tape and everything. And that was the first time that I ever discussed it with anybody. Even the family, nobody, you know, in our family want to even this, really discuss it, though. Because, it was, it was pretty bad. MAYFIELD: Traumatizing situation. BUSTER: Yeah. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Of course. BUSTER: Yeah. Pretty bad. MAYFIELD: There were other events like disasters that happened in Texas City. In 1961 there was Carla. BUSTER: Carla, Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Uh, how did that impact your neighborhood? BUSTER: Oh. MAYFIELD: Your family? BUSTER: Oh, I, at that time, I was married and living in La Marque. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: And uh, my dad worked at Mainland Company, at the Mainland Company. He had worked there for years. So he had, --we had the third, I think the third floor of the building, you know. And uh, we, we, all on the floor. The whole family just came over on the floor, with covering up everything. And I was expecting my daughter, Gwen, uh, at that time. So, it&#039 ; s was pretty uncomfortable on the floor, but we couldn&#039 ; t get a cot, (laughs) you know. MAYFIELD: And you all stayed at the Mainland Company? BUSTER: Uh huh. Yeah, spent the night. MAYFIELD: That building right? BUSTER: Yes. The building upstairs. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: The third floor. And uh, well, we couldn&#039 ; t get cots for nobody. And I was way ready. And they thought when at one time, I started having pain that I would probably deliver but they had another lady that had to go out. But they had what we call amphibian or something, the boats-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: --the trucks that run on water. And they kept telling me, they got amphibian out there. Well, I didn&#039 ; t know what amphibious was (laughs) you know, what they were talking about. But it looked like a tank to me. And uh, then after my pain went, went away, but I was on the hard floor, you know, with the little blanket, didn&#039 ; t seem like it mattered. But our whole family was there, you know. My dad, uh, come over and picked me up from La Marque because they didn&#039 ; t want me and my husband to stay in the house at that time. And, and I had, uh, Melvin, my youngest, uh, son was born in Texas City. And, because we stood up and watched the water over the, uh, parking meters and it was, uh, terrible, really bad. And uh, but I made it through. And this was, uh, Carla was in September, the eleventh, I think, of &#039 ; 61. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: And my daughter was born September twenty-first, on my birthday-- MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: --of &#039 ; 61. (laughs) So-- MAYFIELD: At least she waited a few days. BUSTER: (laughs) Yes. Well, the water had gone down and everything. And ---------(?)(?) MAYFIELD: So, how tall, I mean, you&#039 ; re saying the parking, over the  parking meters, so that&#039 ; s what-- BUSTER: Yes, it was-- MAYFIELD: --five or six feet? BUSTER: It was, it was deep. We were upstairs looking down. The cars were covered. Some of the, you could barely see the hood of the, of the cars, you know. That was in the-- MAYFIELD: So, Texas City flooded entirely. BUSTER: It flooded. It flooded. And, you know-- MAYFIELD: --Okay. BUSTER: And it&#039 ; s not very far from the dike, you know. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: Yeah. It was flooded real bad, you know. I don&#039 ; t know how many days we stayed, but they stayed. Finally, when some started leaving now, we got cots and stayed a little, a few days later. MAYFIELD: So, why did you go to the Mainland Company, uh, to stay? BUSTER: Well, there was so many of us and my dad didn&#039 ; t want to leave us, you know. But he come and got me out of La Marque and La Marque didn&#039 ; t hardly have anything. We had a few little, you know, people was partying over there. (laughs) MAYFIELD: They were partying? BUSTER: Yeah, they were partying and everything, you know. So, they needed help. My son, uh, was uh, he was born in &#039 ; 60, and uh, my brother said, they were going to go, go over to La Marque. They had to help, to help with something. People over there was having a good time. (laughs) So, they said. And we were in, in water, couldn&#039 ; t even get out of the building, you know. Yeah. Very interesting, oh. MAYFIELD: And how many days did you have to stay? How, how many days was Carla. I mean, how long did it take for Carla to, to pass through Texas City? BUSTER: I&#039 ; m not really sure. When the water started going down, people started going back home. And we got flooded in our house, was flooded. But I&#039 ; m really not sure of, how, the length of time. And uh, the government, --they, once the water got down, they could drive. They took me back to, uh, La Marque, you know. MAYFIELD: So, your house in La Marque flooded? BUSTER: No. No, no. Hardly looked like any rain, hardly. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Oh, at your dad&#039 ; s house. BUSTER: But my dad&#039 ; s house flooded. MAYFIELD: In Dickinson, right? BUSTER: No, we were, at that time, with Carla we were staying over here. MAYFIELD: Oh, so in Carla your family was back in Texas City again. BUSTER: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Okay. BUSTER: Yeah. Mm-hmm. &#039 ; 61 yeah. It was 1961, that&#039 ; s when my daughter was born. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: September. And I almost named her Carla, but everybody was naming their baby Carla at that time. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BUSTER: So, I said, &quot ; No.&quot ; We&#039 ; re going to go with Gwendolyn. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Yeah, we&#039 ; ll hold off on that. BUSTER: Gwen, Gwendolyn Joyce. She didn&#039 ; t like it, but uh, uh-uh. MAYFIELD: Well, it&#039 ; s good that she wasn&#039 ; t born during the hurricane. BUSTER: Yeah, thank God. Yeah. No, she was born at John Sealy. Um, it may-- MAYFIELD: --Did you have, like, of course you don&#039 ; t have electricity, I imagine. BUSTER: At that time, we didn&#039 ; t have, uh, with the storm? MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: No. Uh-uh. We didn&#039 ; t have none. But dad had flashlights and he had the one that you&#039 ; d light with the car. He had that, at that time, up there with us, you know. Yeah, because he didn&#039 ; t want me to stay over there in La Marque. He thought it would be, really be bad. But it was worse there, than, uh, here than it was over there. MAYFIELD: It was worse in Texas City than in La Marque -- BUSTER: --uh huh. It was horrible over here. Yeah. MAYFIELD: I see the building as it is right now and it has these, um, window  coverings. BUSTER: Well, now, then we could look out the window and, and see everything coming up and going on outside, you know, when, at the time. So, I don&#039 ; t remember. My dad worked there for God knows, until he couldn&#039 ; t work anymore. For years, Mm-hmm. And, and I want to say that Mr. Orth was the one that had him working there. R. M. Orth. I remember R. M. Orth because he always gave us a box, probably about as tall as, as this here, and with, huge, huge box with fruits, and clothes, and shoes. And that&#039 ; s where I got that ragdoll from. (laughs) MAYFIELD: (laughs) Thank you, Mr. Orth. BUSTER: I think that he was the one, anyway. MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: He worked for the Rubinstein&#039 ; s. Uh, Dave, Dave&#039 ; s Pawn Shop. His name was Dave Rubenstein. Now, he owned that whole block, uh, I think. MAYFIELD: What part? What block did he own? BUSTER: Of, uh, Texas Avenue. MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: Um, Fourth. From Fourth all the way down, uh, to Davison&#039 ; s Home. Davison&#039 ; s was one of the stores, too. Uh, but he owned the public  drugstore, that whole section. And there used to be like a Salvation Army in there, too. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: Because we used to walk right in there. It looked like, either Goodwill, it wasn&#039 ; t Goodwill. I think it was a Salvation Army of some sort, you know, to help us with the shoes, jewelry, the drugstore, ice-cream and all, yeah. Yeah, because we owned, we owned --------(?)(?), it was right around Fourth and Texas, just a few blocks, so we walked everywhere anyway, you know. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Was that the only other disaster that you can remember in Texas City? BUSTER: Oh, what the plant always had something going on. Um, because my dad used to load us up in the big truck. He had a big truck that, and, and we just go and head on out. Got us. When we hear the horn go off. The whistle go off. And then he just, and, and he&#039 ; d fire, you could hear, sometimes, you could hear him say something about fire or something. Just load up and go. And  then wait till it cleared down and come back, you know. I mean, riding that truck many times and many places. Even to Louisiana, and all, you know. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Was that, like an open-bed truck? BUSTER: Yeah. It was a big, big open bed because they hauled everything, you know, around. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Sounds like that Studebaker, right? The-- BUSTER: I don&#039 ; t know if that, what, that truck, the Studebaker. I don&#039 ; t. We had, uh, I, I want to say, another truck in there. Because they, that&#039 ; s what he kept, and one car. I only remember the one car, you know. And I know one was a Pontiac because we changed a tire on it and I was right there with him. MAYFIELD: You were learning how to change a tire? BUSTER: Oh, yeah, he showed me how to change a tire. And I, --I&#039 ; ve done it a few times too. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: The only thing that I was kind of light and my one brother had to come stand on it to get it loose. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: But I was light, but I did it, you know. I taught my children  at twelve, my son at twelve how to change a tire on a car. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: All he wanted to do was start learning how to drive and I, but I said, &quot ; No, you need to learn more about where the oil and all this.&quot ; I still do it, to this day. I did it just a few days ago. I checked the oil and fluid in the windshield wiper and stuff like that. It&#039 ; s kind of hard to get away from. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: (laughs) MAYFIELD: They taught you ; they taught you right. BUSTER: Oh, yeah. Yeah. MAYFIELD: So, you were talking about different places that you shopped, um, what was the place that you shopped, your mom shopped for food for the family? BUSTER: We, the first main one was Pick &amp ; Pay. MAYFIELD: Pick &amp ; Pay? BUSTER: That&#039 ; s right down the street from us. I remember a Pic &amp ; Pac. I can&#039 ; t really remember where it was. And we had a store called Nuckols that, uh, uh, that uh, we shopped, my dad did. He did a lot of it too. My sister, Rose, did a lot. And I would go wherever they sent me. That&#039 ; s where I&#039 ; d go. And um, and we called one store, we called Big Natches, and I can&#039 ; t, I can&#039 ; t even spell it now. And another, and, uh, well one was our Rizo&#039 ; s. And that was like a meat market. And that was on Texas Avenue going towards the dike down there. Um, Pick &amp ; Pay, oh goodness. C. P. Evans was another one. I remember going there for food, so we, we&#039 ; ve been around shopping, you know. MAYFIELD: So, did you have to shop for several, you know, at maybe one place you shopped for fruit, one place you shopped for meat, you know. Did you have to shop around like that, or was it mostly in, you know you could go to one store and-- BUSTER: One. MAYFIELD: --everything-- BUSTER: You could go mostly to one store and uh, I want to say Rizo&#039 ; s was more, to me, I know I&#039 ; ve gone there to get meat, year(?)(?), whatever they sent us for, we would go, you know. Yeah. I think that&#039 ; s one I can remember, you know. But there was quite a few places, you know. And for clothing, we always went to Weiner&#039 ; s. There was a Weiner&#039 ; s. I used to love Chamber&#039 ; s, but I couldn&#039 ; t afford it, (laughs) at that time. But I, every once in a while, you could get something on sale like that, you know. MAYFIELD: You said, &quot ; Weiner&#039 ; s? BUSTER: Weiner&#039 ; s? Uh huh. MAYFIELD: Was it a clothing store? BUSTER: Uh huh, yeah. Weiner&#039 ; s had a little of everything, you know, for shopping to go to school and things like that. MAYFIELD: Where was that located? BUSTER: It was on, it was on, right there, on, uh, Second and Sixth. Right on Sixth Street. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: Yeah, yeah. I think it was Second, the next street, yeah, First, Second. Because it, that, we would get to Weiner&#039 ; s before we got to the theater, you know. Yeah. MAYFIELD: The theater was right down street? BUSTER: Yeah. It was right down there in that area too, you know. MAYFIELD: Uh, so, um, how welcome did you feel in, in all of these stores? BUSTER: You know, I never had a problem, myself, you know. Uh, at  one, one time a young, little girl, I&#039 ; ll say little girl, was walking to Weiner&#039 ; s and the child was saying--. I was eating an apple. It&#039 ; s the first time this come up. And actually, everybody else knew it. Uh, I was eating the apple and this little child was hollering the N word. Well, that used to be a fighting word (laughs). It used to be a fighting word. And some of our family didn&#039 ; t like us to fight or nothing like that, you know. Everything was, you know, man, woman, boy, girl. It never was Black or white in our growing up. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: It&#039 ; s man, woman, boy, girl. So, I, and I grew up with that, and me, and my children, too. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: So, and so, then I, I was eating that apple and I went over to the car and stuffed it down her mouth. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: I looked for the police to pick me up, but they never did. (laughs) But uh, that was a fighting word at that time. Could sometime, you walk, see because that side was segregated, and you&#039 ; d come across that&#039 ; s what you&#039 ; d hear a lot  of things doing, you know. But I, I never was too bothered about that, you know. Because my dad always said, &quot ; Man, woman, boy, or girl, no matter what color&quot ; , you know. If you see my family now, I&#039 ; m international. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: We got all races in it. All races. And my, my grandchildren, great-grandchildren, yeah. Yeah. MAYFIELD: They take your father&#039 ; s word, right? BUSTER: Yeah. They were, -- MAYFIELD: --Don&#039 ; t see color? BUSTER: They were well, well, they were, they were raised, you know, like that, different. I guess they wanted us to be, you know, the same way they were. But it was strict. Now, my mom was very strict. My dad wasn&#039 ; t too bad, but my mom was, oh, (laughs) very strict. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: In what way was she so strict? BUSTER: Oh, you, we, we better listen, look, and, and don&#039 ; t talk back. Don&#039 ; t even look like you wanted to talk back. (laughs) That&#039 ; s the way that eye, that hand, that finger, that eye, uh-uh, that&#039 ; s it. My dad wasn&#039 ; t going to say  very much. And he not going to repeat it over and over either (laughs) that&#039 ; s just the way, but they, we understood that. Made us know that you know. There&#039 ; s no way, my, um, uh, we could have been living and talk like these kids do to parents today. Uh-uh. (laughs) Oh, no. Oh, no. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: It wouldn&#039 ; t have, yeah, they wouldn&#039 ; t have gotten away with it at your mom&#039 ; s house. BUSTER: Oh, no. And if we had tried, we wouldn&#039 ; t be here to tell you about it (laughs). MAYFIELD: (laughs) Oh, my goodness. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Uh, let&#039 ; s see. We kind of talked about that. Okay. So, um, you, you know you mentioned a little what it was like being, um, African American in Texas City. You know-- BUSTER: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: --you had the division-- BUSTER: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: --from Texas Avenue. BUSTER: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Um, you could go some places to get food, but not sit, right-- BUSTER: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that&#039 ; s right. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Um, and every now and again, you, you might see um, you know, people saying things that-- BUSTER: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: --you know, were not complimentary to you, I imagine. Uh, so, you have this civil rights movement starting-- BUSTER: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: So, what was that like being Black in Texas City? BUSTER: It was really scary, but I&#039 ; m, I&#039 ; m the type that liked to know what&#039 ; s going on and then see what&#039 ; s what and make sure it&#039 ; s been done right and fair. And out of, my dad was the honesty one, to be, --he wanted you to do what&#039 ; s right and do as you&#039 ; re told and all things like that. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: And um, so, it was interesting. Oh, I, I, when I joined the, --older and I was eighteen, uh, do you want to go that far? MAYFIELD: You joined ; you joined the N-- BUSTER: --Well, I joined the NAACP later, but I was eighteen, because  I did all the paperwork at my house for my dad, my mom and dad. And uh, when I turned eighteen, I went and got my, I wanted to vote. I went and got my poll tax, and it was three dollars that I paid for it then. And I turned eighteen, and then, from then on, they started calling me to help out with election things when it was going on. But this was, the civil rights was getting, I didn&#039 ; t, as a child, I missed a lot of it, a small child, but growing up, you know it got, you know, worse and worse. When I was, --joined the union. When I worked, um, and I worked under the leadership of, uh, Johnnie Henderson, and um, oh boy, he was dynamic. I mean, -- MAYFIELD: What do you mean by the union? BUSTER: We, it was a, a local, a labor local union that I joined. I&#039 ; m still with the one that&#039 ; s on Texas Avenue now across from Amoco. I&#039 ; m a retired member from it now, but um, we paid so much money, and even when I worked at the  hospital, it was like fourteen dollars coming out of my check for the union dues and things like that. But union to me was a lot of help of finding out instead of us fighting, going, finding out was going on. We got people that worked together at that event, knew all about the problems and worked together and joined and that&#039 ; s when I joined. Uh, because I joined the NAACP, uh, chapter 6201 further back, you know, when I got older. But that&#039 ; s ever, uh, to me was a good thing to have the union because they fought for the, --for everybody, you know. Not just Black, white, everybody, you know. And I&#039 ; ve always enjoyed--. And I would march in a lot of protests and everything, myself. And there&#039 ; s-- MAYFIELD: Were there protests like marching protests in Texas City? BUSTER: Oh, yeah. Uh, huh. Oh, yeah. And, and it was, it was interesting because I&#039 ; m watching a lot of them. As a matter of fact, uh, I wanted to go  to the, uh, Selma, when, when, because Johnnie Henderson and a group, a lot of them was going. And I wanted to go, but I couldn&#039 ; t afford to go. And so, could said, I want to go to that, but I know there is a lot of violence, but you know, and it was something I wanted to know more about. To get involved in. And I&#039 ; ve been involved in demonstrations, marching and everything, all my life, yeah. When I feel like something&#039 ; s not right, I post my opinion and you know hit the road. And you go around, and you try to get people to come in and vote and, and see what&#039 ; s going on, you know. So that, so that was interesting to me, yeah. MAYFIELD: You were going around the community, um, uh, you know, discussing the issues-- BUSTER: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: --with the community so that they would be able to understand, so that when it was time to vote, they would-- BUSTER: Right. MAYFIELD: --be able to make informed decisions? BUSTER: Oh yeah, yeah. We did a lot of that. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: Talking to people, trying to get them to know. Somebody would  know, let you know what you&#039 ; re voting for. What it is. That&#039 ; s how when I got my poll tax. That&#039 ; s when they started with me and I was eighteen. (laughs) Yeah. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Um, do you remember hearing talk about integrating schools? BUSTER: Yeah, but my, uh, when they did integrate, I graduated in &#039 ; 58, and it was &#039 ; 66. Well, I missed that part of it. But they had been talking about it, you know. And I thought that would be nice because we had used books where maybe five or six people maybe have had this book since we get them. We get them they&#039 ; re so old and torn and worn out, you know. So, I was, I was, I thought that would be nice, you know. You know. So, I had no, no regret about that. MAYFIELD: So, you felt like, um, integrating schools, that you would have more resources-- BUSTER: Right. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: --for schools. Right? BUSTER: And you&#039 ; d be, we&#039 ; d be together one, as one, you know. And um, that&#039 ; s-- MAYFIELD: --Was there discussion about why not to integrate schools? BUSTER: There was different opinion at that time, some didn&#039 ; t want to, but-- MAYFIELD: Do you know why they didn&#039 ; t want to? BUSTER: You know, when, back, at this, um, you know, I never, I never did discuss much with them. I felt like I&#039 ; m going to do what I think is best and go. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: And go (laughs) so, that&#039 ; s what I usually do anyway, you know. MAYFIELD: Right. BUSTER: Yeah. Because we were raised up, no matter what or who you are, what, because in my house, my son said, &quot ; Mom, can my friend come spend the night?&quot ; And I&#039 ; d be looking for, you know, it might be a little Black boy, it might be a Spanish or white. It just, the people just, I was raised with, just, so different, you know. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: And then, it didn&#039 ; t matter. And my children didn&#039 ; t matter what color they were. And I was glad of that, you know. So, like my dad always taught us, you know. &quot ; Man, woman, boy, girl. And God is still in control as he always  baby you don&#039 ; t have to worry about it. And if you have a problem, you talk to God about it&quot ; ; you know. And I just loved that with him because that&#039 ; s become instilled in me (laughs) MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: You know. I tell my children to just prayer and talk to God. And I will always be that way. I&#039 ; ve always been that way, anyway, you know. And I like being fair and honest, and, you know, helpful. I, I loved working with, --I always liked working with older people all my life. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: And I still do. And um, so, it was kind of hard for me to just turn my back on things that I know that wasn&#039 ; t right, you know. MAYFIELD: Well, you were mentioning something about Weingarten&#039 ; s, um, as a particular controversy that happened. BUSTER: Oh, yeah. MAYFIELD: Can you, can you talk a little bit about that? BUSTER: Yeah, um, Johnnie Henderson came up to the school and got the name of us, twelve of us. And uh, got our name and we, they called us in the office and told me, he explained to us what we was going to do. We&#039 ; re going to  Weingarten&#039 ; s. Just go in and just sit down at the counter and uh and be served. So, we didn&#039 ; t know. We just going on following what they said. And, uh, he got all our names and all. And when we went in, nobody was at the counter. So, I, I know [Points off camera] there was a group of us just lining up to sit there and we waited. Nobody would wait on us. And the one Black lady that was there, she started over to come and, I don&#039 ; t know whether to talk to us or say what. But the lady that&#039 ; s over the place called her back. So, we never got to talk to her. But we sit and sit and sit and waited. So, Johnnie Henderson just stood in the back, you know. He just stayed right back. Because we had to go to the counter and order our food, but he don&#039 ; t want to sit down and eat. And, uh, it was pretty close to lunch time, look like, because we thought we was going to sit  there and eat, you know. We were so happy to go and sit down at the counter and eat. (laughs) And all of a sudden, here come the police come in. And he thought we were out of school, playing hooky or something. He was going to take us all to jail. So, oh, what Henderson did was to step up and say, &quot ; I got everybody&#039 ; s name here. They&#039 ; re with me.&quot ; MAYFIELD: Who said this? BUSTER: Johnnie Henderson. MAYFIELD: Okay. BUSTER: &quot ; They&#039 ; re with me.&quot ; And that was all he had to say. We thought we were going to jail. (Buster, Mayfield laughs) You know. That&#039 ; s all he said and so, he just, you know, okay, and then took us on back, on back to school. MAYFIELD: How old, --what grade were you in-- BUSTER: --That was exciting. MAYFIELD: I mean, what year is that? BUSTER: It, it had to be eleventh. Around there, the eleventh. Tenth or eleventh. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: Because uh, I hadn&#039 ; t graduated on that. And, it had to be the tenth or the eleventh. I&#039 ; m, I&#039 ; m going to talk to some of the others and see if they can remember. But, um, that to me, that was fun (laughs). MAYFIELD: Who were some of the other kids that were with you? BUSTER: I remember, uh, Bobbie Hawkins and, uh, Ella Jean Jones. I wish she were here because we were close. We were the only two tennis players, women tennis players, female tennis players at the school at that time. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: And um, who else? Willie Ray James. And I can&#039 ; t remember who else just off the top of my head. But Johnnie Henderson had the names of us, you know. We opted to put us, he brought us on down there, here at Weingarten&#039 ; s right where the Food King is now. But when, back later, they took the counter out, so the counter was gone. (laughs) So, that was, that was fine for us, you know. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: But we got ready to go to jail and the police come up. Two policemen came in and &quot ; Y&#039 ; all out of school,&quot ; you know. And he, he stood back, you know, and we just come to eat, you know. He told us we were going to be served, you know. But he just stood back and all they did was just walk up and  say, &quot ; They&#039 ; re with me and I got all of them names right here&quot ; , you know, so. MAYFIELD: So, he was able to get you out of school-- BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: You went and sat at the counter. The police show up. They might potentially take you to jail for not being in school. BUSTER: Yeah, huh. That&#039 ; s what they thought. MAYFIELD: And he just sort of stood up with you and said, &quot ; No&quot ; . BUSTER: Yeah. &quot ; They&#039 ; re with me.&quot ; So, we didn&#039 ; t go to jail (laughs). We all thought we was going to jail. But that was fun. (laughs) At that time. MAYFIELD: Were there other events like that happening in Texas City? BUSTER: I was just happy to get out of school to do anything. (laughs) Really. And uh, I can&#039 ; t remember, I want to say Lance and Lester Taylor, but I can&#039 ; t really remember if they were right with us at that time or not. I&#039 ; m trying to think of some of the others. I know Ella Jean Jones was one of them. Because she was right with me. Hmm. But it was, it was twelve of us. He took twelve of us up there. Yeah. So, I&#039 ; ve been working every time he&#039 ; d go anywhere, I would. You know, he was over the NAACP part, and so, I just stayed in it, you know, you know. I retired in it, you know. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: Yeah. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Who were some of the more important Black leaders in your community. BUSTER: Okay. MAYFIELD: That you can remember during this time? BUSTER: Okay. In my community, oh, there was, uh, Mr. Fuller, Mr. Henry, and uh, Mr. Covenson was our Scout leader. They were very interesting. And the preachers. All the preachers always worked with us with everything. And I had-- MAYFIELD: I was going to ask you about that. What did the churches, --what role did the churches play in, in the civil rights movement? BUSTER: They backed us. They backed us everywhere but some of the people come to the church and they would let you know. The church was interested in letting you know if these people be qualified, if they&#039 ; re right to go, you  know, not have trouble. There were always, --uh, most everybody come to the church to, to be voted, to get votes. So, they, want to, you know, let us know if it&#039 ; s the right person you want to vote for and things like that. And they played a good part with anything that went on with us, with the group, and-- MAYFIELD: --So, you&#039 ; re saying that people who were running for a vote, running for the vote, would come to the churches and they would sort of explain what they were-- BUSTER: --Yeah, what&#039 ; s going on. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: Yeah, and that&#039 ; s all, every election, we have all the people come to the churches too. Because, if you, I have noticed that the majority of votes that, that, when they come to the church, the majority of the votes, they, on the good side, and they have a chance of getting in the office, you know. And I think they did that a lot more now than uh, they used to, yeah. MAYFIELD: Oh, I see. BUSTER: Yeah, uh huh, yeah. MAYFIELD: And let&#039 ; s see. So, you belonged to the NAACP-- BUSTER: Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: --in Texas City, correct? BUSTER: Yeah, Mainland branch, Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Who belonged to that branch with you? BUSTER: Oh, we had, God-- we had so many. We had the Williams, the Henderson family, the Williams family, and um, God. We had so many people. Ms. Annie Pearl White. And uh, God. We had quite a few, you know. Had to -- MAYFIELD: -- Did you play any specific role, like specifically women, did they play a role during the civil rights movement? BUSTER: Oh, yeah. They worked right along with the men most of the time, you know, as far as I know of, right with the men. And the women would do phone calls and contact people also, you know, to get, try to get them to come and join. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: And uh, because I joined, uh, at my church. I signed my children up at my, at the church by the youth department because we had a youth,  too, department. MAYFIELD: Who was your leader, like when you first joined? Who, --was Johnnie Henderson in charge? BUSTER: He was, he was in charge. MAYFIELD: Okay. BUSTER: He was a strong boss. MAYFIELD: He was in charge for a while, it seems. A lot. BUSTER: Yeah, he was in charge for a lot. Anything that went on, even with the union, and then the--. He even come to City Hall. I was making, well--, at the hospital, I made a dollar sixty-two an hour. He got my check and said, &quot ; Would you mind me taking it&quot ; , --went to. The same thing with Mayor Doyle, he come to the, see how much I was making, went over and talked to him about the, the money that I was making. Well, I&#039 ; ve always been the type, I never just worked just for the money. I worked to help people. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: And I, that&#039 ; s what I&#039 ; ve done all my life. You know, even though I needed the money, whatever I got, fine with me. Because at ninety-seven cents an hour, if I was just looking for money, I never would have went to John Sealy-- MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: (laughs) but I wanted to be in the nursing field, you know. And then a dollar an hour, I left ninety-seven cents at John Sealy, and come to  Mainland for a dollar an hour. But I still worked with the mothers and babies and help around here, you know. So, I, and I worked at City Hall, I wasn&#039 ; t making that much money. I started there with six dollars an hour and then I left at nine fifty-three. I never even got to ten dollars. MAYFIELD: Mmm. BUSTER: I made, I made more working, uh, home health on a weekend. I worked for Mantooth Home Health taking care of May, May Bruce in Santa Fe. And uh, working weekends, weekends, and nights, --nine-fifty an hour when I was only making seven at the city. So, my boss took those ten thousand dollars that I made, W-2 form, and the city was seven thousand something. I gave it to Tom Peterson, was my, uh, city secretary. I showed him, I said, And this is just like  weekends, and you know, overtime weekend.&quot ; MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: And he took it across to Mayor Doyle and that&#039 ; s when I got a hundred dollars across the board raise. (laughs) (sound disturbance) MAYFIELD: Wow. BUSTER: That&#039 ; s when I a got a hundred dollars across the board, now, raise. But I never got to, uh, in twenty years, I never got to ten dollars. But like I said, I just didn&#039 ; t work to make the money. Just because my husband worked at the plant at that time. And because it was, it wasn&#039 ; t all that. He definitely needed it, but you know, I worked to help people ; you know. And I liked working with, you know. I&#039 ; m not the type to just sit around and do nothing, you know. So, it&#039 ; s kind of hard to get away from it even though I&#039 ; m older now. (laughs) Yeah. MAYFIELD: Well, so the NAACP is, has a big influence in Texas City. BUSTER: Oh, yes. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: The churches have a big influence. BUSTER: Yes, yes. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: Were there any other groups or agencies that also had influence? BUSTER: Working with, --growing up and working with them, those were like our main, uh, interests was, uh, helping, --that was looking for help and needing help. That was our main, uh, source of people, you know, working with them. I don&#039 ; t know, uh. MAYFIELD: Do you remember where you were when Martin Luther King was killed? BUSTER: Mainland Center Hospital. MAYFIELD: You were working? BUSTER: I was working there, Mm-hmm. Second floor of Mainland Center. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: What was the reaction around you? BUSTER: Oh, it was horrible, you know. People were mad and some were scared. But, you know, what could we do about it? We were working. And oh God, it was a lot of threatening going on with the opposite race, you know. MAYFIELD: What do you mean a lot of threatening. BUSTER: Yeah, matter, --even though he was killed because he was Black, you had the Blacks that&#039 ; s threatening the white. We had a lot of that going on at one time,  you know. Uh, we didn&#039 ; t have to, --I didn&#039 ; t, I never did worry about stuff like that, that I can&#039 ; t do nothing about. And I was raised that way, you know. So, -- MAYFIELD: There were Black people in Texas City threatening white people, too-- BUSTER: Oh, yeah. MAYFIELD: --or no, just in other places? BUSTER: Oh, just, really it was other places too and Texas City. MAYFIELD: Oh, okay. BUSTER: Yeah. It was, oh, God, all over the news, you know, how some people would react. But, I mean, that&#039 ; s, what can you do about something in a situation like that? You was way off. That was way off, you know. I hated it, you know. And I loved that man. Because he was really a lot of influence with us, really. Yeah. I have a niece that worked for his daughter. Uh, she just stepped out a few years ago. She worked for her for a long time, you know. Took pictures with, and all. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: It really was nice. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Well, we&#039 ; re kind of at toward the end of our, our program right now, uh, our questions. Um, so are there any final thoughts? Is there anything else  you would like to share that we haven&#039 ; t really touched upon? BUSTER: Seems like we have covered, is there anything else? We&#039 ; ve covered most everything that I could think of. Uh. I think we&#039 ; ve ; I think we&#039 ; ve done, uh, covered everything. I&#039 ; ve enjoyed that, you know. (laughs) Thank you all so very much for that. Really, I appreciate it. It&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s the first time I really got to talk about the disaster and things like that and to let you know. So, that, it&#039 ; s interesting me and I was excited about that, you know. MAYFIELD: Well, I&#039 ; m glad that it was not a bad experience, that way. BUSTER: Yeah. I, I just learn to pray and keep going. And uh, my pastor preached that. Um, Rev. Benford has really been a blessing in our life, you know, with all this that&#039 ; s been going on, you know. And um, that has helped me come  a long way, you know, a lot further since my family, my mother and dad, my dad helped me. So, it&#039 ; s a blessing to have him. And I have other ministers, too, that&#039 ; s been in the family, around, yeah. MAYFIELD: He&#039 ; s really ministering to you. BUSTER: Oh he&#039 ; s, he&#039 ; s a Bible scholar. MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. BUSTER: Celebrating seventy-one years in one church-- MAYFIELD: I know. BUSTER: --on Sunday. Yeah. MAYFIELD: I just had an interview. I, I interviewed him-- BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: --before. And so, um, uh, he had a lot, a lot-- BUSTER: Oh, yes. MAYFIELD: --that he could contribute, you know-- BUSTER: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. MAYFIELD: --to the conversation. Yes. Well, this concludes our interview with Daisy Belle Buster. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for sharing your stories with us and, um, taking time, and, and, um, and allowing us to ask you so many questions. BUSTER: Why thank you, thank you so much for it. It&#039 ; s exciting. Yes. MAYFIELD: You&#039 ; re welcome. BUSTER: Yeah. Thank you. MAYFIELD: Today is Wednesday, November tenth, and we are in Texas City, Texas in the Parks and Rec meeting room in the Nessler Building. This is Theresa Mayfield, the Local History Librarian with Moore Memorial Public Library. I'm working on the African American Oral History Project, initiated by Moore Memorial Public Library to aid the African American community in building the historical narrative and to fill in the gap of the historical record. Today, we have the distinct pleasure of interviewing Daisy Belle Buster of Texas City. Daisy, it's a pleasure to see you today. Um, I'd like to ask if you could introduce yourself, um, starting with &quot ; My name is and I was born in--&quot ; and then just start telling us a little bit about yourself. BUSTER: My name is Daisy Buster. I was born and raised in Texas City, Texas. And I've been here all my life. I haven't been anywhere else. I come with my parents. And they all, um, um, both my parents came from Louisiana. My, my mother's from Franklin, Louisiana and my dad was from Jeanerette. Um, they're, Oliver and Elnora Swan. MAYFIELD: What year did your family move to Texas City? BUSTER: Nineteen twenty-six. MAYFIELD: Nineteen twenty-six, okay. And when, and what year were you, what year were you born? BUSTER: September 21, 1938. MAYFIELD: Thirty-eight. Okay. And you said your family was originally from Louisiana? BUSTER: Right. MAYFIELD: Uh, do you have siblings? BUSTER: Yes, I do. MAYFIELD: How many siblings do you have? BUSTER: My bro--, I have ten brothers and six sisters that lived, um, with us. Raised with us. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: My mother had eighteen children. My dad had two boys by his first wife. So, that's twenty of us. MAYFIELD: Twenty of you. That must have been exciting at dinner time. BUSTER: Very. Very. (laughs) MAYFIELD: (laughs) Um, so, uh, what was your family's economic circumstances? With, with twenty children, you know, it must have been very interesting. BUSTER: Very interesting. Uh, my dad worked. He worked um, for Texas City, all around. And uh, he traveled. We, we traveled right around in the area. We lived there. And uh, he worked for quite a few people that you might would know. I remember, uh, Mr. R. M. Orth was one of our men that he worked for. Roy Campbell, which my brother Roy, is named after, after. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: Clarence Stoneburner, which my younger brother Clarence, is named after him. Very interesting. He traveled around, hauling garbage, cutting the yards and different things in the city. He worked the wharf, so, he was pretty busy and the boys worked with him. My brothers worked with him a lot. MAYFIELD: Oh, your brothers worked with him. BUSTER: Right. MAYFIELD: Uh, but you said, I think one time you mentioned that your father was a preacher. Is that correct?  BUSTER: Yeah, he was a preacher at the rest end of his life. He was a Mason-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --and a, a preacher, yeah. MAYFIELD: And what was your, what did your mom do? BUSTER: My mother never worked. Um, just at home. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: With the children, you know. She never worked outside of the home, so. MAYFIELD: Well, that's a lot. And that could be enough, right? BUSTER: Yes. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: Yes, ma'am. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. Uh, do you ever remember when was tight in your family?  BUSTER: Oh, yes, yes. But my dad always made a way that my brothers, my brothers and sisters, everybody worked. We helped each other. So, we made it. We had a really good time. MAYFIELD: Yeah? BUSTER: Enjoyed life. And, just, there's just so much to do with a large family. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: Yeah, you know. So, we, we really had a good time, growing up. MAYFIELD: Did you have any other relatives living in Texas City also at the time? BUSTER: One time my, my oldest sister was living uh, next door.  MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: Uh, the next lot from us. And uh, that was all the grandchildren, nieces and nephews. They always come together. We always, family always got together. MAYFIELD: What about um, your grandparents, uh-- BUSTER: My grandparents came here very seldom. We went to Louisiana quite a bit. Growing up, I distinctly remember going to my grandmothers and sleeping overnight there. My grandmother was sitting in a chair like something like this-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --and we had the pallet on the floor because it was only a two-bedroom house. And uh, she watched over us while we slept (laughs) and wake up. MAYFIELD: Oh wow. BUSTER: Yes. MAYFIELD: She sounds like a, a wonderful lady. BUSTER: Yes, and she was a beautiful lady. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: And she was white and uh, my dad was Black, and uh-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: My grandfather was Black, my grandmother's white. MAYFIELD: What was your grandmother's name? BUSTER: Dora Adams. MAYFIELD: Dora Adams? BUSTER: Williams. She was a Williams. Dora Williams Adams. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Dora Williams Adams. Hmm, hmm. And, um, how long were your grandparents married? BUSTER: I'm not sure how long, but they were, I was smaller growing up. My grandmother died in, in '50--, 1954-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: But I don't really remember my grandfather dying. MAYFIELD: Okay. Okay. BUSTER: I remember him dying, but not the year and things like that. MAYFIELD: Um, did your uh, did you ever have, um, other contact with other relatives, like your aunts and uncles? BUSTER: My Aunts-- BUSTER: Yes. My aunt and my uncles, um. We gathered a lot. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: My dad's brothers, so, and Aunts and cousins. We always, we were close, and we still are. (laughs) MAYFIELD: How many-- BUSTER: --Our family still are. MAYFIELD: How many brothers and sisters did your dad have? BUSTER: My dad had three brothers and one sister. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: And your mom? BUSTER: Miss, my, my mom had one sister. There's no brothers. Just one sister. MAYFIELD: My goodness.  BUSTER: Yeah. Hmm, hmm. Yes. MAYFIELD: They both come from a bit of a smaller family, right? BUSTER: Oh, Yeah. (laughs) MAYFIELD: (laughs) Um, so, growing up, what was your address? BUSTER: I was born at 416 Fourth Avenue South. I can barely, barely remember the house. I know it was a two-story house. But I was raised at 404 Third Avenue South.  MAYFIELD: And how long did you live there? BUSTER: Um, when I left home at twenty-one, I stayed with my parents, until I was twenty-one years old. MAYFIELD: And how long was it from between when you moved from the 416th uh, four one six, you said four one six-- BUSTER: Four one six, Fourth Avenue. MAYFIELD: Fourth Avenue, right. How, um, how, how long did you um, live at the four one six Fourth Avenue? How-- BUSTER: I was still a small child so I couldn't, I don't really remember the date, but I was small and just remember living in a two-story house and then growing up in the four-bedroom house. (laughs) MAYFIELD: In the four-bedroom house, a bigger house, right? BUSTER: (laughs) Yes. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: My dad had the four-bedroom house and a two-bedroom house on the-- MAYFIELD: --So, I imagine, BUSTER: --uh, the whole area. MAYFIELD: --that having eighteen to twenty brothers and sisters that it was just you guys in the house, right? Your, your, --you the kids and your parents. BUSTER: Yes. Sometimes the grandkids would come and stay, yeah. MAYFIELD: Sometimes the grandkids would come and stay-- BUSTER: --My mother had raise some of the grandkids. MAYFIELD: Oh, okay. BUSTER: Yeah, too, yeah. MAYFIELD: Um, so, where was your neighborhood located? What, what part of, of, so, uh, Fourth Avenue, you said? And-- BUSTER: Uh, huh, South. MAYFIELD: South and Third Avenue South. That's more on the east side of Texas City, right? BUSTER: That would be like the south side. We were one block from the plants. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: One block would be south and then to the east was two blocks over. MAYFIELD: Okay. So you-- BUSTER: Because the plants --seconds, went into the plants and we had stores and places on uh, Second Avenue before. So, we were just, we were right in the Texas City disaster. MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Okay. So, you, because you were so close to the uh-- BUSTER: Yes. Very close. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. Uh, did your neighbors look after one another? BUSTER: It was just like a big family. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: Everybody helped one another. You know, we were kids playing and if we did something wrong, the neighbors and everybody, they were our parents (laughs). You know, they say it takes a village to raise children and we were that village. MAYFIELD: You were that village. BUSTER: (laughs) MAYFIELD: I was just actually thinking of that quote, when-- BUSTER: Yeah, yeah, the neighbors were very, very concerned about children growing up and all and uh, they're very nice. MAYFIELD: Very nice neighbors? BUSTER: We had a good. We had a large family, but we had a good time. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: I got raised a good time. When dad was kind of strict with us, my mother, but we were raised that way, you know. MAYFIELD: Yeah. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: It was good then. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Um. What was the racial make-up of your neighborhood? BUSTER: We only, mostly all Black and a few Spanish. And that's all. Very few. And just in that area because, uh, the Medinas lived down on Second Avenue and um, uh, the Sitzbergers, and them lived down on Second, they were raised, we were raised up. We were on Third, Fourth, Third Avenue and Fourth Street, and they were on Second and Second up in that area. MAYFIELD: Did they have a lot of kids too, I mean, they have kids too that you could play with? BUSTER: They didn't have a lot of, lot of kids that I knew of. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: That I can remember. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: Yeah. But we were raised up together. Uh, Jimmy and Richard Medina, Robert and, the family. Medina, I said the Medina family was raised up. There were the ones closest to us. MAYFIELD: There were the closest to you guys? BUSTER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Um, did your neighborhood have a lot of social events? I know that um, everybody was close, but-- BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. Yeah. Not a whole lot. We had to um, liked to go, liked to go out in a park and the recreation. We'd go to, Sanders Center was there for us to go to. And the pool and different-- Wisby's ice cream parlor was there for us. We'd leave church and we had the park. Sanders Center was our park that we'd attend. So, it's very interesting, very nice. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: Very interesting. Yeah, you know. MAYFIELD: Seems like a really nice neighborhood to grow up in. BUSTER: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Everybody was like a big family. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: (laughs) Around there. MAYFIELD: So, what about holidays? Uh, were there any special holidays that you guys, that you liked to celebrate? BUSTER: Well, we did Christmas, Thanksgiving, New Year's holidays. The Nineteenth of June. And, uh, mostly the traditional. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. Did you have any traditional foods that you would, uh-- BUSTER: Chicken. We didn't have the turkey as much till later, but ham, and one of the biggest dinner for. I don't remember too much turkey, but unless we got, till we got older, you know. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: As growing up as, before the disaster, was mostly ham and chicken and, and the main basic, you know. MAYFIELD: So, it must be-- BUSTER: Cakes and pies and things like that, we all-- MAYFIELD: So, it must be kind of interesting getting all of you around the table, right? BUSTER: Yes. (laughs) Oh yeah, my dad was very particular about that.  MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: We had to eat at the table, then we had to sit on the side of a big, long bench to listen to the Bible when he'd read to us and everything. We were brought up with that, you know. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. He read the Bible to you guys at dinner time? BUSTER: Oh, yeah. He would go over the stories with the Bible. We, as young children we just felt like, oh, not again. (laughs) MAYFIELD: (laughs) BUSTER: And uh, we, he, but that was the way we were raised. And hadn't gotten away from it. Quite a few of us still with it. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Oh, my. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Well, I know that we're-- BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: -- actually going to talk about religion right now. BUSTER: Uh, huh. MAYFIELD: Uh, uh, so, what church did you attend when you were young? BUSTER: We were raised, all seventeen of us, was raised up in Galilee Methodist Church. And that was on uh, Eighth, right off of Eighth and Second. MAYFIELD: Eighth and Second? BUSTER: Yeah. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: And, um, what influence do you think that your church had on you growing up? BUSTER: I, I really think that was the training and the meeting that we had and going to BYPU [Baptist Young People's Union], and the different activities had a lot of meaning for us. Letting us know that God is God and He is still in charge, you know. We were raised up in very little money, but we still would go to church and I'd pretty much go all day if my dad didn't take us. Mr. Henry would pick us up. Mr. Fuller would take us, and it was always like five or six of us going in, in that car, you know. (laughs) And they would, if, they would pick us up and make sure we were there and bring us back home after church, you know. Very interesting, in, at that time, I guess I was more, because I was the secretary, it looked like everywhere that I went even at school, I was the secretary (laughs). So, it was very interesting and educational too. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: But they want us to know that what the Bible meant, to read and understand it. And that-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: This is where I got my reading. And I love to read, and I've gone over the Bible from beginning to end, several times, so. And quite a few, and I got, a few, three preachers in uh, in the family, and deacons in the family, quite a bit. Ten brothers that uh, and six of them went to the service. And real good. Had real interesting life. And they just taught us a little bit of everything that we need to grow up to learn. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: And uh, how we would live, you know, ourselves when we get older, you know. It's just like our teachers ; they made a way for us to understand. We had a lot of Black history that we had to learn. Had to learn (laughs) to see where we come from, our forefathers had done for us. Yeah. MAYFIELD: So, you, you, um, what was the age difference between the oldest child in your family and the youngest, because, you said that you would get driven to church, but I would imagine that um, there must of been a, a bit of an age gap. BUSTER: Well, the boys always can, when they got up they would, on like, like on their own. Because, uh, then the girls and, and the younger boys always rode in the car with, with my neighbor, my dad, my brother-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --somebody was always, you know. And if we didn't, we'd walk you know-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --to church, because it was just not very far away at all, you know. MAYFIELD: How far was the church from your house? BUSTER: Like uh, we were, we were on Fourth Avenue, lived on Fourth Avenue and Third, Fourth Street and Third Avenue, and the church was on Eighth and uh, uh Second Avenue. So, we just go a few blocks. MAYFIELD: Just a few blocks. BUSTER: Hmm, hmm.  MAYFIELD: So, I mean, religion is, uh, uh, obviously so important to you and to your family-- BUSTER: Yes. Yes. MAYFIELD: --um, was there a pastor who uh, stood out to you as a child? BUSTER: Yes, as a young girl, Rev. Perryman was the pastor of the Methodist church. Of course, we all, sometimes we didn't want to go there. We'd leave there and go to Barbour's Chapel, which was Rev., uh, R. J. Scott. And then Rev. Johnson was at First Baptist. All three of the churches in a row. MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: Barbour's Chapel, First Baptist. Barbour's Chapel, the ice cream parlor, First Baptist, then the Methodist-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: --across the street. Barbour's was on Eighth Street-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: --you know. MAYFIELD: So, depending on what you wanted as you got older, you could go to any of those churches if you wanted? BUSTER: Oh, yeah. We could, we could always go, but you know, all, most of my friends went, I didn't want to go to church, I would like to uh, go where my friends were. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: They were all at Baptist-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --most of them. So, when we leave that church we would go to the Baptist church, you know, well. And right now, I'm Baptist. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Oh, you-- BUSTER: When I got to be twenty-one, I decided I'm going to church when I get ready, and so I changed to Baptist, you know. MAYFIELD: Mmm, interesting. BUSTER: Yeah. And I'm still there at the same church. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Did your family have any, uh, issues with you changing religion? BUSTER: No. Uh-huh. No. It was, you know. When we, when we get eighteen, nineteen, well, you're on your own pretty much. You know. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: Even though I started work at eleven years old babysitting at my sister's Rose place and I stayed with them until I was graduated from high school. MAYFIELD: Mmm. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Okay.  BUSTER: I worked, I worked for the O. R. Snarr. MAYFIELD: What was that? BUSTER: O. R. Snarr was the family that I worked for, the Snarr family. MAYFIELD: Oh. When you were babysitting at eleven? BUSTER: Eleven years old. And I stayed there until I graduated from high school, you know. MAYFIELD: My goodness. BUSTER: Hmm, hmm.  MAYFIELD: That's a very long time. BUSTER: Yeah. Beautiful family, too. MAYFIELD: Yeah? BUSTER: Even the girls now and boys now, still beautiful family. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Did you, you said that, um, you know, so again, the church was so important to you, what, uh, social groups or events did the church have for, um, the young people? BUSTER: We had the choir, and, uh, I was an usher on the usher board. Uh, we helped children, the smaller children, and usher board and choir practice and different activities the church put on. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: We would go to other, visit other churches, you know. MAYFIELD: You mentioned BYPU? BUSTER: Baptist Youth, uh-huh. It's a, a good way, that students would, not students. You would meet, the children would meet and, and go over the Bible-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --a section of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. It'd just depend on what subject we going into. MAYFIELD: So, like Bible school, I guess? BUSTER: Bible, like Bible studies. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: Yeah, and we still do Bible studies. You know. MAYFIELD: So-- BUSTER: But it was called BYPU [BYTU-Baptist Youth Training Union]. Mostly youth, uh-huh. MAYFIELD: What does it stand for? BUSTER: Baptist Youth. Oh, Baptist Youth, oh, um, Union, I've forgotten now. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. (laughs) BUSTER: I shouldn't have. Don't let my pastor know that I've forgotten that.(laughs) BYPU. We'd go to Bible studies and a lot of activities. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: Sunday school was on Sundays, you know, evening. So, there was a lot of activities for us. And even more so at my church now because the, the Methodist church was somewhat different from the Baptist, you know. It was much smaller, and we were most of the children there. Our family being larger. And then our friends was over at the Barbour's at the Baptist church, you know. MAYFIELD: So, you had most of your friends were at the Baptist church? BUSTER: Oh, so, yes. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Okay. I see. BUSTER: Yeah. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Uh, so, can you share a little about your educational experience? And you were talking about where you went to school. Where-- BUSTER: Uh-huh. MAYFIELD: What was the name of the school that you went to. BUSTER: I went to Booker T. Washington. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: And graduated from there an honor student. And uh, very active in sports-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: and all the sports and uh, I was involved in so many. I don't know how we did it, but we did it. I loved school and didn't want to quit. As a matter of fact, when I graduated, I just cried because I wasn't ready to graduate. MAYFIELD: Well-- BUSTER: But um, I was in so much, so much, so many activities. At home it was different because you go home and do your homework and do your work. But at school, you've got different activities. I sung in the choir. The glee club was something I was very interested in. I, I even boxed at home with my brothers. I had ten brothers so if they all box so, (laughs) I was the tomboy of the family and I boxed. And I still like boxing. And-- MAYFIELD: And you-- BUSTER: I still like to punch a bag. MAYFIELD: I think you mentioned something about having a boxing ring in your house? BUSTER: No. At the yard. We had a big house and a big yard, you know, area come from the street to the alley. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: Well, the whole side was a boxing ring. Where everybody would come to box. And uh, from all, everywhere around. All of my brothers boxed you know.  MAYFIELD: Did any of the girls box with you? I mean-- BUSTER: Just me. I was--- MAYFIELD: Just you. BUSTER: --the only tomboy (laughs) in the family. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BUSTER: Yeah, I love it though. Yeah. MAYFIELD: So, where was Booker T. Washington located? BUSTER: Uh, seven and seven oh two, Second Avenue, uh, uh, South. MAYFIELD: Second Avenue South. BUSTER: Everything South. Hmm, hmm.  MAYFIELD: And-- BUSTER: And uh, and it's on Eighth and Tenth Street. Eighth, Ninth, and Tenth Street. Yeah. MAYFIELD: It was on Eighth, Ninth, and Tenth Street? BUSTER: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm, hmm. No, Eighth and, uh, Seventh and Eighth Street was the main, because the gym was on Seventh and -- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --the school was on Eighth and the Sanders Center and all. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Uh, so, how did you get to school?  BUSTER: We walked. MAYFIELD: You walked? How long did it take you? BUSTER: We didn't have, we didn't have busses. Oh, not very long. We weren't very far from school at all. We lived on Third Avenue, the school was Second, the school was on Second Avenue South, and we were on Third Avenue South, uh, and then we were on Fourth and the school was right on Eighth, the corner of Eighth there. Four blocks. I'd say four blocks, maybe. MAYFIELD: Um, that's not too bad, four blocks. BUSTER: Yeah. Yeah. It didn't take long to get there. Just go straight up the road-- MAYFIELD: Yeah-- BUSTER: --from my house. Yeah. MAYFIELD: So, after school you did a lot of, um, school activities? BUSTER: Right. We had, I played softball, basketball. I ran track. I played tennis. I did broad jumping, pole vaulting. (laughs) I threw the baseball. Threw the discus. And, we just. So, much to do. I mean, I was involved in so much, that's-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --why I didn't want to leave school. I felt like all my fun would be gone. MAYFIELD: Oh, well, were you the only tomboy out of all your sisters? BUSTER: I, I was the worst one anyway. (laughs) MAYFIELD: The worst one? BUSTER: I had another sister that was a little bit more active, but I wasn't a doll person. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: You know, one, you know. Uh, my dad only got me one doll, that I know, growing up and uh, I put a rope around its neck and threw it in the ceiling and put my boxing gloves on. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BUSTER: He said, you won't get another doll, you know, from what I did to it. MAYFIELD: I learned my lesson. BUSTER: It was an ugly ragdoll-- MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: --in the first place. (laughs) I never did dolls much growing up -- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --I did marbles and then whatever the boys plays, I played. (laughs) Yeah. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. So, you were pretty active in school-- BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: --but what was your favorite subject in school? BUSTER: Oh, I liked history. My, my favorite teacher was uh, Aurilla Beavers was her name. Very good historian. She wanted us to know, growing up, all of the Black history going up. The pictures: we have walls of pictures and all. And I just loved that she was a good teacher too. And I just loved my history program. Yeah. MAYFIELD: What was her first name? BUSTER: My name? MAYFIELD: No. Your, your history teacher's first name? BUSTER: Aurilla Beavers MAYFIELD: Aurilla Beavers. BUSTER: A-r-i-l-l -a, A-u-r-i-l-l-a I think it is. I need to look that up. I should have looked that up. Very good. -- MAYFIELD: --What grade did she teach?  BUSTER: Oh, god, let's see. She was our history teacher, I was, started there. We used to call prima-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --before we uh, went to the first grade. By me--, my birthday, being September twenty-first, I had to wait a year because, we had to be six by the first of September. MAYFIELD: Hmm. BUSTER: And mine came the twenty-first, so that kind of, I thought, put me behind at the time, because I wanted to go to school. But um, her name was Aurilla, uh, Beavers. Hmm, hmm. And, Miss, we have uh, Calvin Vincent was our principal and after Vin--, Ethel B. Benson was our, was one of my teachers. Miss McClure was one of my teachers. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: Mr. Carter, Thomas S. Carter was our coach and teacher, English, coach and teacher. And he made sure that every T was crossed and every I was dot. Very particular about that. Mr. Godfrey, Tom, um, Iverson Godfrey was our coach and teacher, math teacher also. Mr. Worsham was chemistry. So, it was very interesting. MAYFIELD: What was his name? Mr.? BUSTER: Worsham MAYFIELD: Worsham? BUSTER: W-o-r-s-h-a-m. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Hmm. BUSTER: Yeah. He was uh, our chemistry teacher. MAYFIELD: Okay. BUSTER: So, that was it. And my sports teachers. Jesse James McFarland was my band director and he was our choir director. We had the, um, his son, the Glee Cub was, uh, we sung around different places in town. And we were music, and um. MAYFIELD: You guys had an opportunity to go to different venues and, and sing for the school? BUSTER: We sung at Sam Pickwick's Cafe was one of our main, that we sung at, with what we eat. Of course, we had to go through the back door because everything was segregated at that time. MAYFIELD: Oh, okay. BUSTER: And uh, we sung around and different activities at school and wherever they wanted the Glee club was called in. And-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. Now what was the name of that place you just mentioned that you-- BUSTER: Sam Pickwick's right there on Texas Avenue where, right now where Matthew's is. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: We, we had to go to through the back door in the alley to go into the place. But we sung there, and there was eating at it. I don't know where the front part was, but-- MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: --but uh, we sung there, oh, quite a bit. Often. Wherever they wanted the Glee Club to sing, you know.  MAYFIELD: Where else did you guys have an opportunity to sing? BUSTER: To eat? MAYFIELD: To sing. BUSTER: Oh, to sing. Well, you know, naturally we had choir practice all the time and then school activities. And we used to go down Sixth Street and it was like, uh, where we had a school closing program, where we had programs, we always sang there. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: You know. It was just interesting-- MAYFIELD: --I'm just tired thinking about everything that you did when, when you were in school. BUSTER: (laughs) I don't know how I did it. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BUSTER: That's why. I don't know where all the pictures are, but I do have some of them, you know. (laughs)Yeah. MAYFIELD: So, so, who had the most influence on you as a teacher? BUSTER: Mr. Godfrey. He was a very, he was coach and math teacher. But he was very, very strict with us, you know. Well, all of us, pretty strict, but. He had us to really understand why he was doing this. Mr. Carter was pretty good at, I'm doing this now because when you grow up, I can remember him and Miss Beavers always saying, well, when you grow up, you're going to need this. And that's what I liked. Our teachers put things that we would need growing up in life. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: And I always remember them telling me that, you know. With English, Mr. Carter were very, very good in English. Very, very good in English, you know. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Uh, so, can you tell me a little bit about your, um college aspirations? BUSTER: I always wanted to, uh, go to college. And, and when I did graduate, even though I was an honor student, I only graduated with a, a scholarship of seventy-five dollars to go to Hutson-Tillotson. And that was what I had really planned. But when, when we come out to fill out my application, my mother was, you know, my mother and father really couldn't, uh. But my sister Rose was going to try to send me. And then, after that, I met my, my husband and I decided, &quot ; I'm going to work&quot ; , you know. So, when I graduated on May 28, I saw my sister, because the other day, it said May 29th, but in August, there was August the fourth, I went to John Sealy and worked as an aide. Ninety-seven cents an hour. That's what I-- MAYFIELD: Ninety-seven cents an hour?  BUSTER: -- an hour, hmm, hmm, at John Sealy. And I worked there. I loved it. John Sealy trained you a lot at nurse's aide. We had all type of training that I wanted, because growing up I always said I was going to be a nurse. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: And so, I worked all my life around the hospitals, so. And uh, so I worked there until '64 after my youngest child was born, Robert. I decided to go to County because I got tired of driving back to Galveston with the bad weather and the traffic and all. And so I went to County Memorial and, and I worked there from '64 to '71. MAYFIELD: Where's County Memorial? BUSTER: Galveston County Memorial. MAYFIELD: Okay. BUSTER: It's still there. MAYFIELD: Okay. BUSTER: But it changed so many names, you know. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: Yeah. And I worked there till '71. I went out during the strike. We had a strike there and I never did go back to work permanently. I worked weekends-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --or if someone was off or something like that. And I worked registrar, so I did a lot of private duty, you know. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: So, I stayed in working in nursing homes all around instead of just going. And then finally, I said, well, I don't know anything but nursing. I don't have no other field, uh, to go, so I decided to go to College of the Mainland. And (laughs) and I did office procedures there. So, went through that and my second semester, I got a call from my sister-in-law saying, how would you like to work at First American Title doing the same thing that you're doing, learning in college, and we've got on the job training. So, I--MAYFIELD: --What year was that? BUSTER: That was uh, in, I went there in '78, I think it was. And uh, no, because they have four years, so it must have been before '78. But I went there and worked there until they closed. And they closed in '80. So, and I worked there and I did learn a lot of office procedures. So, when they closed in '80, I went to Texas City of Texas City, May eighth of 1980-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --and worked there for twenty years. Yeah. Yeah MAYFIELD: You've had a long legacy. BUSTER: (laughs) Yeah, interesting. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: But I loved it, you know. I loved working. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: I love working with people, but, at the hospital it was just mostly mothers and babies, nursery, some labor and delivery. But that's all I knew, was mothers and babies. I even worked part-time at the uh, telephone, GTE Telephone in Dickinson. And while I'm sitting on the toll board, I could hear babies crying, so it took me like, a long time to get rid of, not hearing them in the bin with the babies-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --you know and mothers, you know. It was really interesting. MAYFIELD: Not, no matter what job you went into there was maybe, mothers and babies somewhere (laughs). BUSTER: Yeah. Looked like everywhere. Then I end up nursing a lot of the nurse--, I worked at every nursing home they had around here-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --except the one on Twenty-fifth.   MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --where now, that's the only one I didn't work at. Because I had three children, I was going to, went to college and money was tight, so my husband worked at, when he left Todd's Shipyard, he went to the plant. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: And there was starting to move, getting better. Things getting a little bit better, because it was pretty tight with three kids. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: And uh, not really making that much money, you know. MAYFIELD: What plant did he work for? BUSTER: Amoco. MAYFIELD: Amoco. BUSTER: My husband worked for Amoco. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. Um, let's see. So, let's talk about your spare time. (laughs) BUSTER: Well, I didn't (laughs) MAYFIELD: When you were younger, you know, what did you do in your spare time? BUSTER: Well, it, it, before I got married and had the kids, well I, I liked singing and dancing. Uh, I loved my dancing and loved singing. Loved music to this day. And uh, we'd go to the park and the swimming pool was open. And tennis, I played tennis in school. Even went to state with tennis too.  MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: And uh, went, go to, we had to go to Nessler Center to the tennis. Out here at the Nessler Center[Points behind her]. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: To, uh, to play tennis and I enjoyed that. Really did. But one time, growing up younger, we weren't allowed to, well, I won't say allowed, but we, if you, if you were to cross Texas Ave divided the Black from the white, you know. So, that was when you go across Texas Ave you almost had to fight, (laughs) you know, at sometimes. It was very, very strict, you know. MAYFIELD: By how, uh, what do you mean by you almost had to fight. What does that mean? BUSTER: Well, somebody always was pick or something, you know, try to fight or something. When you, because you're not supposed to be on Texas, on the north side of Texas Avenue. That divided us.  Yeah. From the-- MAYFIELD: What, what years, like, was that, that you noticed that? BUSTER: Oh, God, I was eight years old in, when Texas City disaster and I remember that because you could, we could walk from our house to Pick-and-Pay. I don't really remember where Pic-&amp ; -Pac was, but you know, we always could walk there. And we could walk to Texas Theater, you know and places like that, but you know, there was always somebody ready. You're not supposed to over there, you know. So that, that's the way we came up. But, we were taught to, you know, just do what we were supposed to and be fair and honest and come on back home, you know. MAYFIELD: So, no one ever worked on the north side of Texas Avenue? BUSTER: My sister, Rose worked. My, my dad worked all over Texas City. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: I mean, he worked for all the, all the richest people, I say in Texas City, to us, they were rich. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: And uh, and that's where he made money. Driving and doing, hauling, and working, he work in the plant. As a matter of fact, he was supposed to be at the plant when Texas City disaster-- MAYFIELD: --Happened. BUSTER: --he was supposed to be there, but he didn't get picked to work, you know. So, they come back home, him and my brother. Yeah. MAYFIELD: I guess that would be like a, uh, you know, I guess a blessing, right? Because-- BUSTER: Oh, yeah. It was a blessing. In school just before graduation, um, Weingarten's was where, uh, Food King is now, it used to be a Weingarten's, but we couldn't sit at the counter. So, I've always been in the union, uh, when Johnnie Henderson was our leader, then. MAYFIELD: Oh, before you talk about that, I want to hold off on that-- BUSTER: Okay. MAYFIELD: --because we will talk about that. BUSTER: Okay. MAYFIELD: I really want to get into that a little bit deeper with you. BUSTER: Okay. Alright. MAYFIELD: Um, but so, um, you did a lot in your spare time and-- BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: --uh, who were your best friends growing up? BUSTER: I had, uh, Barbara Coldwell, was, we grew up together, uh, closely. She was in La Marque, but we knew each other. And I had Bobbie Hawkins, she was a Hawkins, she's a Stevens now. And Thelma Hawkins, we were all close, we even ran track, baseball. We did all the sports together-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --you know, so. So, it was just like sisters in the family. And--  MAYFIELD: Some, well, what did you guys do together then? BUSTER: Other than our sports at school? MAYFIELD: Yeah, other than sports at school. BUSTER: Yeah. We would go down to Wisby's ice cream parlor, down sometime to the dike or something like that, and. Most everything was walking, we walked everywhere-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --we really didn't do driving like that, like the children do now. (laughs) You know. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: But we did a lot, you know. We had a lot of activities. There was something to do all the time. Be in, never get in trouble, or anything like, you know. We would go to the theater. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Did you have to be home by a certain time? BUSTER: Oh, yeah. We had to be home before dark. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Oh, before dark. BUSTER: And we go anywhere at night, you had to be home before twelve [laughs]. MAYFIELD: Oh, okay, right. (laughs) BUSTER: Yeah. (laughs) Oh, yeah. MAYFIELD: That's right. Uh, so, uh, you, what did you do on the weekends for fun as you were growing up? BUSTER: It was just like going down to the parlor, or park, Sanders Center, or the pool. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: Practice. If we weren't in school. We were so busy in school, everything was kind of right there for us to do. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: So, like Bobbie and I, we were cheer leaders, and we ran track, we played baseball, softball, you know. It was just a lot you could do and then my family, all the guys usually boxed all the time, so-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --there was always people there, you know, so.  MAYFIELD: There was a lot of people at your house? BUSTER: A lot of people, yes. MAYFIELD: All the time. BUSTER: But the men boxed mostly, you know, because there wasn't to many women. I had to box with the guys because there was no women boxers. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Oh, my goodness. Learn how to duck, right? (laughs)  BUSTER: My brother, Thomas, taught me. (laughs) Yeah, he taught me to box. How to defend yourself, going to do this, you know.  MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: And I liked the punching bag, like that, and all [mimics using small punching bag]. MAYFIELD: How old was Thomas? BUSTER: I really couldn't say because he was, you know, the oldest one always looked after the younger ones-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --and helped with anything, buy clothes, shoes, whatever you needed. Rose, my sister Rose, took care of us, really, you know, like, when my mother never could went out to cook,-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: -- she was at home all the time, but-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --she made sure that we had everything we needed for school, you know. MAYFIELD: How much older was Rose than you? BUSTER: She's about eight years older. I was, um, I think she's eight years older than I am. MAYFIELD: Eight years older? BUSTER: I'm the eleventh child. MAYFIELD: You're the eleventh child. Oh, my goodness. Okay. BUSTER: And she's, uh, she must be the seventh, sixth or seventh. Because Thomas was the seventh, we always said &quot ; seven-eleven&quot ; so he was the seventh. Rose was older than him-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: --so, the next oldest one now. But she took care of us, you know. She'd fill in where my mother didn't, you know. Well, everybody helped the other one. You know, the young ones. MAYFIELD: So, the older ones just kind of trickled down-- BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: --you know, and that just-- BUSTER: They worked and they helped, you know, whatever we needed. MAYFIELD: They worked and they helped with the next group of kids-- BUSTER: Right. MAYFIELD: --that came around. BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Yes. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Yep. I can that would, how that would be, uh, I mean, a necessary thing, right? BUSTER: Oh, yeah. Hmm, hmm.  MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: Yeah, because money was tight. When it's tight, the boys worked my dad a lot. And, uh, so, we made it. MAYFIELD: Yes. BUSTER: We didn't go hungry. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Well, you said, you mentioned going to the theater. What was the name of the theater that you went to?  BUSTER: It was called Texas Theater. That's the only one we could go to. We couldn't go to the Showboat until later in the years we did, but growing, up, the Texas Theater was the one we-- MAYFIELD: How much, how much were tickets? BUSTER: Fifteen cents is what we paid for going in the movies. MAYFIELD: That sounds like a pretty good deal. BUSTER: (laughs) It was. Yes, ma'am. It was very good. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: Yeah. It was fifteen cents. MAYFIELD: Do you remember what year you started going to the Showboat, where you could? BUSTER: I was a little bit older. I was in the disaster at eight years old, so it was after the Texas City disaster, because we went to, um, I'm not very sure of the age. Let me think about that. Yeah. I know I was in the, uh, we were in high school when we went to, uh, to be served at Weingarten's. I, we were, I was in High School then. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Okay. BUSTER: So, it was in between, in that, somewhere in there. MAYFIELD: In between there? BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Okay. Well, we'll talk about that in a little bit more then. BUSTER: Okay. MAYFIELD: Um, what about restaurants? Did you guys ever get chances, with a big family, right, go to restaurants? BUSTER: My sister worked at, um, I can't think of the name of the, a place on Sixth Street. They served food. She worked there. But we never, uh, just go and sit, in a, growing up (unintelligible) just go in a sit. We could go and order, you know, food, from--. And Sam Pickwick was one of them. And Agee's was another one that we could go and order food. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm.  BUSTER: Could not sit at the counter or nothing like that. But we could order food, yeah, you know. MAYFIELD: So, there were no restaurants in Texas City that you could just go-- BUSTER: --Terrace Drive-In. It was, a better one than, because it wasn't so hard to go, but you could still order your food and eat and leave. MAYFIELD: Oh, I see. BUSTER: Terrace Drive-In was there too, with us, you know. MAYFIELD: Okay. So, did your dad own a car growing up? BUSTER: A car and a truck. MAYFIELD: A car and a truck? BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: What kind of car and truck did he have? BUSTER: The car, I, was a Pontiac and the truck was a Studebaker, I think it was. MAYFIELD: A Studebaker? BUSTER: (laughs) The Studebaker's all I can remember. One of them he had to [makes cranking motion with hand]. And I used to love to do it. MAYFIELD: You had to crank the car? BUSTER: Wind it, crank it up. That was with the, yeah. It was a, was a, it might have been the Pontiac. I can't really remember. But we had, yes, one of them we had to go and turn. I used to get out there and turn. He taught me how to change a tire and do a lot of things. And, we had a lot, he had a lot of guns. He showed us how to take them lose and clean them and all. But he didn't let us handle very much, but he would show us how. MAYFIELD: Did he ever take you hunting? BUSTER: Oh, we used to go hunting a lot,-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: --uh, you know, when older, a little bit older, you know. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: Before, you know. They went hunting. The guys always hunting, and fishing. My brothers fished a lot, -- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: --you know. Yeah. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Did you like hunting? BUSTER: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I like guns. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Well, okay. What kind of things did you, um, uh, go hunting for? BUSTER: Well, then, and I wouldn't do it now, but there's squirrels and, and ducks, and birds. Now, now I love the birds (laughs) and the squirrels and things. But that's what I used to go hunting with. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: The guys would go out there heavier, but I, I stayed with the small items. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. Yeah, small items. BUSTER: --you know, yeah. MAYFIELD: You did a lot. BUSTER: Oh, yeah. MAYFIELD: A lot of stuff outdoors. BUSTER: I loved it. MAYFIELD: Yeah. BUSTER: And I still like the outdoors, yeah. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. And-- BUSTER: I'm still on the treadmill and walking and everything. I'm slower now, but I'm still walking. Thank God. MAYFIELD: Yeah, and you don't have a walker or anything, so that's fantastic. BUSTER: Well, I don't know, I may be getting there. It seems like now, sometimes I want those. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BUSTER: I'm eighty-three now. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Well, you don't look it. I wouldn't--the camera should tell you, you don't look it. Um, so I have a question. So, when, so, your father drove the car? BUSTER: Uh-huh. MAYFIELD: And did your brothers get a chance to drive the car? BUSTER: My, yes, they drove, too. And then-- MAYFIELD: And your sisters? BUSTER: And then they got their own cars. They each got their own cars later, when they got up. My brothers, Thomas and Edward, taught us, the girls. I was twelve. We always, we always had this thing, twelve years old we're going to teach you how to drive. And I do that with my, I done that with my kids, now my grandkids, great grandkids. Uh, they taught us how to drive. We used to go up, we used to call the dump. Where Sixth Street ends at, go-around. MAYFIELD: Are you talking about-- BUSTER: Bay Street go around? MAYFIELD: Yes. Yes. BUSTER: It was called the dump at that time. And uh, The Sprys, the Blues, we called them Blues. They lived out there. That's the next largest family. But we were the largest family in Texas City. And uh, we would go out there and drive, and drive, you know, because they wouldn't turn us loose in town nowhere like this. (laughs) MAYFIELD: You, you needed some space to learn how to drive, right? BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: My brother, Thomas, was really, he taught me to box and to drive. MAYFIELD: He had a lot of influence on you. BUSTER: Well, it was, it was the old shift and I, I don't like shift. Have to learn on. That's what I learned on ; you know. MAYFIELD: Oh, how-- BUSTER: Stick shift. MAYFIELD:--it was stick shift. Yeah. BUSTER: Yeah. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Yeah. Stick shift. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: It makes it a little more challenging to drive, right? BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: When you're twelve years old. (laughs) BUSTER: Oh, it was exciting. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Yeah. I can imagine. I wish I was twelve years old, learning how to drive (BUSTER laughs). BUSTER: Oh, yeah. MAYFIELD: So, if the car broke down, where did you take it? BUSTER: My brother and my dad always were mechanics. We've got quite a few mechanics in the family, you know. MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: They always, I never remember them taking them to anyone because they did their own work. My dad was good, pretty good at it, you know. And my brother Thomas was good. He could fix anything, look like, you know. You know. MAYFIELD: Were all the children born in the house? BUSTER: I'm sorry. MAYFIELD: Were all the children born in your house? BUSTER: No, the oldest, of four, the oldest one was in Louisiana. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: And Ell, Elliot, Elias was in San Antonio. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: And the rest was in here, in Texas City, in Galveston. MAYFIELD: So, were you born in a hospital? Were you born in your home? Or? BUSTER: I was born in the hospital. MAYFIELD: You were born in a hospital. All of you? BUSTER: No. Some were born at home. Dr. Twidwell was our doctor. MAYFIELD: Dr. Twidwell? BUSTER: He grew up with us, uh huh. With all the whole family, you know. But some of us were born in the hospital. I think my brother, Herbert, in the hospital. I don't know who all was born at home. Have to look back at, I got the birth certificate, and death certificate. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: I've got them at the house, too. (laughs) Yes, sir. MAYFIELD: What about, uh, local news or national news. Where did you get your, your news from? BUSTER: Mostly, when, it used to be the radio. That's all we could to listen to the radio music and everything. Later on, uh, my dad got a TV they bought from Mr. Busbee's. Well, that was exciting, you know. MAYFIELD: How old were you when you had a TV? BUSTER: Um, I want to say around the sixth or seventh grade, somewhere years old, something in that area. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: Because uh-- MAYFIELD: Sixth or seventh grade or six or seven years-- BUSTER: Six or seven years, somewhere in there. MAYFIELD: Oh. Okay. BUSTER: There seems like it was, uh, in that age group, you know. I was eight when the Texas City disaster-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: --and we had a TV then. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Well, we're going to talk about that in a minute. Um. BUSTER: Okay. MAYFIELD: The Texas City disaster and, and sort of other events-- BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: -- and disasters in, in Texas City. Um, but, so, everybody in your neighborhood knew everybody? So,-- BUSTER: Oh, yes. MAYFIELD: -- did you keep your doors unlocked in your neighborhood? BUSTER: We never did lock up very much. Once in a while if we were going out of town or something like that. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: We never did lock very much, lock up the doors. MAYFIELD: Well, when you're home right-- BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: --everyone's kind of coming and going? Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. And I started doing that when I got married because I, you better lock your doors. It took me a while to do that, too. To lock my doors and-- MAYFIELD: Oh, because you weren't used to it. BUSTER: --when I, when I left home, yeah. Hmm, hmm. Yeah. MAYFIELD: So, you mentioned the disaster when you were eight years old. BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Um, do you remember where you were at the time that it happened? BUSTER: I was dressed for school. I went to school a half of day. Twelve o'clock. And already was dressed, you know. I loved school. And when the fire started, me and my mother and my baby brother was out, went out to the door, standing in the door. And uh, and if you can say that the fire was beautiful, it had a golden, pretty fire, but it was at first, you know. Then all of a sudden, it got real dark. And then the boom. And somehow or another, my mother was trying to hold me, my baby brother was knocked behind the refrigerator, had a ice box on the porch. So, he was, I found him behind there. I got away from my mom and ran out the back door. I jumped across a wooden stove and a cabinet with the dishes there that fell over the stove. So, I jumped across that, went out the backdoor and just started running. Down the street, Third Avenue. And uh, somehow or another it looked like a bale of hay was coming towards me, so I was trying to run and get out of the way of that. I don't know what it was, but it just, in the air it look like a bale of hay -- MAYFIELD: --the twine that was, I guess there was twine of some sort. BUSTER: -- but it just-- in the air it look like a bale of hay. I never did know what it was, but. And I grabbed my, uh, my neighbor's car door. And when I opened the door, he said, &quot ; Get in!&quot ; And my niece was in there, Ella, was in that car. And we were going down Sixth Street and my sister Rose worked at one of the cafes on Sixth Street. And passed her and I said, &quot ; There's my sister&quot ; and he says, he, uh, &quot ; come on and get in the car&quot ; and she said, &quot ; No, I'm going to find Mama.&quot ; And that's the last we saw of her because he drove onto Dickinson School. We went to school to stay there for few days. Exactly, I didn't know how many days, but when they started putting everybody in place, my family was at Camp Wallace. MAYFIELD: Okay. So, you were in the Dickinson school. So, you guys are separated? BUSTER: Yeah. We were all, all separated. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Okay. So, your family went to Camp Wallace. BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: And, and then you were Dickinson School? BUSTER: No, me and my sister. No, I was, me and my niece went with Mr. Milton, Dave Milton. We went with, in his, their car, and they drove there. We met up with my sister Gerrie and, uh, one, my brother didn't count. So, they took us, when they took us out of there after a few days, they took us to Camp Wallace. So, we were all in line, when they got to us in line, and they asked us our name, and we started telling them Swan. They said, &quot ; Oh, we got some Swans in sixteen.&quot ; Sixteen was one of the buildings. So, they took us to there. And there was my mom and dad. My brother was in the hospital with glass in his eye. Edward, my brother, Edward was there. And uh, those are the ones I can remember that was there. So, that's how they got together. Then find out we all, everybody was safe. My mother got hit in the head with something. And my brother got glass in his eye, but he was in the hospital. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: He stayed in there. So, that was all, oh, thank God, with all of us. And there was nine of us in school at one time. And so, with all of us, and we were, we were blessed. God was looking after us. And, the house didn't get torn down, blown down, but the windows and everything was blown out. Something came through the roof, and I don't know exactly what that was. But, and we, my dad was already building a house in Dickinson at the time, so they just went out and finished building, put the windows in, and everything. And that's where we stayed for a couple of years. MAYFIELD: Okay. So right during that, right after the, uh, the disaster, your dad had the house in Dickinson, so you just moved over there? BUSTER: Yeah. We just moved over there. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: And that's where my younger sister was born, in Dickinson. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: In 1947. May 12, 1947. MAYFIELD: What was Camp Wallace like? BUSTER: It was a lot of soldiers. And of course, they had food, that big camping, you know. A lot of people there, from everywhere. And uh, a lot of soldiers, I remember, you know, that helped us with everything. I don't remember how long we stayed there. Yeah. Because my dad, um, with the kids, my dad helped the uh, people, that some of them got hurt, they used his truck to, yeah, help take people to the doctor. And, and-- MAYFIELD: Oh. So, your dad acted like an ambulance to take people-- BUSTER: Yeah. He was there. -- MAYFIELD: --to the doctors if they were hurt? BUSTER: Yep. Yeah. Cleaned up. Whatever needed to be done because that was what he was doing anyway, before. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: You know. Yeah. MAYFIELD: I'm sure your mother must have been so overjoyed at the fact that you walked through that door. BUSTER: Oh, yeah. We, we thought, we didn't know where they were, I mean, because everything was leveled around there. MAYFIELD: Did anyone explain to you what happened, I mean, like knowing that it blew up, of course, but did anyone ever explain to you what, what was really happening, or what had really happened? BUSTER: They uh, well they talked about it in school and, at, in Camp Wallace, they talked about it. Uh, tell us what, you know, what was going on and all. The ship and all that. But, our family never would discuss it. It was like a nightmare. You didn't even want to think about it. It was really horrible, really. And, the first time, uh, that I did talk about it when Channel 2 came to City Hall, and, um, they made a tape and everything. And that was the first time that I ever discussed with anybody. Even the family, nobody, you know, in our family want to even this, really discuss it, though. Because, it was, it was pretty bad. MAYFIELD: Traumatizing situation. BUSTER: Yeah. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Of course. BUSTER: Yeah. Pretty bad. MAYFIELD: There were other events like disasters that happened in Texas City. In 1961 there was Carla. BUSTER: Carla, hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Uh, how did that impact your neighborhood? BUSTER: Oh. MAYFIELD: Your family? BUSTER: Oh, I, at that time, I was married and living in La Marque. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: And uh, my dad worked at Mainland Company, at the Mainland Company. He had worked there for years. So he had, we had the third, I think the third floor of the building, you know. And uh, we, we, all on the floor. The whole family just came over on the floor, with covering up everything. And I was expecting my daughter, Gwen, uh, at that time. So, it's pretty uncomfortable on the floor, but we couldn't get a cot, (laughs) you know. MAYFIELD: And you all stayed at the Mainland Company? BUSTER: Uh huh. Yeah, spent the night. MAYFIELD: That building right? BUSTER: Yes. The building upstairs. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: The third floor. And uh, well, we couldn't get cots for nobody. And I was way ready. And they thought when at one time, I started having pain that I would probably delivery but they had another lady that had to go out. But they had what we call amphibian or something, the boats-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER:--the trucks that run on water. And they kept telling me, they got amphibian out there. Well, I didn't know what amphibious was (laughs) you know, what they were talking about. But it looked like a tank to me. And uh, then after my pain went, went away, but I was on the hard floor, you know, the little blanket didn't seem like it mattered. But our whole family was there, you know. My dad, uh, come over and picked me up from La Marque because they didn't want me and my husband to stay in the house at that time. And, and I had, uh, Melvin, my youngest, uh, son was born in Texas City. And, because we stood up and watched the water over the, uh, parking meters and it was, uh, terrible, really bad. And uh, but, I made it through. And this was, uh, Carla was in September, the eleventh, I think, of '61. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: And my daughter was born September twenty-first, on my birthday-- MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: --of '61. (laughs) So-- MAYFIELD: At least she waited a few days. BUSTER: (laughs) Yes. Well, the water had gone down and everything. And, (unintelligible). MAYFIELD: So, how tall, I mean, you're saying the parking, over the parking meters, so that's what-- BUSTER: Yes, it was-- MAYFIELD:--five or six feet? BUSTER: It was, it was deep. We were upstairs looking down. The cars were covered. Some of the, you could barely see the hood of the, of the cars, you know. That was in the-- MAYFIELD: So, Texas City flooded entirely. BUSTER: It flooded. It flooded. And, you know. MAYFIELD: Okay. BUSTER: And it's not very far from the dike, you know. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: Yeah. It was flooded real bad, you know. I don't know how many days we stayed, but they stayed. Finally, when some started leaving now, we got cots and stayed a little, a few days later. MAYFIELD: So, why did you go to the Mainland Company, uh, to stay? BUSTER: Well, there was so many of us and my dad didn't want to leave us, you know. But he come and got me out of La Marque and La Marque didn't hardly have anything. We had a few little, you know, people was partying over there. (laughs) MAYFIELD: They were partying? BUSTER: Yeah, they were partying and everything, you know. So, they needed help. My son, uh, was uh, he was born in '60, and uh, my brother said, they were going to go, go over to La Marque. They had to help, to help with something. People over there was having a good time. So, they said. And we were in, in water, couldn't even get out of the building, you know. Yeah. Very interesting, oh. MAYFIELD: And how many days did you have to stay? How, how many days was Carla. I mean, how long did it take for Carla to, to pass through Texas City? BUSTER: I'm not really sure. When the water started going down, people started going back home. And we got flooded in our house, was flooded. But I'm really not sure of, how, the length of time. And uh, the government, they, once the water got down, they could drive. They took me back to, uh, La Marque, you know. MAYFIELD: So, your house in La Marque flooded? BUSTER: No. No, no. Hardly looked like any rain, hardly. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Oh, at your dad's house. BUSTER: But my dad's house flooded. MAYFIELD: In Dickinson, right? BUSTER: No, we were, at that time, with Carla we were staying over here. MAYFIELD: Oh, so in Carla your family was back in Texas City again. BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. Yeah. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Okay. BUSTER: Yeah. Hmm, hmm. '61 yeah. It was 1961, that's when my daughter was born. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: September. And I almost named her Carla, but everybody was naming their baby Carla at that time. MAYFIELD: (laughs) BUSTER: So, I said no. We're going to go with Gwendolyn. MAYFIELD: Yeah, we'll hold off on that. BUSTER: Gwen, Gwendolyn Joyce. She didn't like it, but uh, unh-uh. MAYFIELD: Well, it's good that she wasn't born during the hurricane. BUSTER: Yeah, thank God. Yeah. No, she was born at John Sealy. Um, it may-- MAYFIELD: Did you have, like, of course you don't have electricity, I imagine. BUSTER: At that time, we didn't have, uh, with the storm? MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: No. Unh-uh. We didn't have none. But dad had flashlights. He had the one that you'd light with the car. He had that, at that time, up there with us, you know. Yeah, because he didn't want me to stay over there in La Marque. He thought it would be, really be bad. But it was worse there, than, uh, here than it was over there. MAYFIELD: It was worse in Texas City than in La Marque -- BUSTER: --uh huh. It was horrible over here. Yeah. MAYFIELD: I see the building as it is right now and it has these, um, window coverings. BUSTER: Well, now, then we could look out the window and, and see everything coming up and going on outside, you know, when, at the time. So, I don't remember. My dad worked there for God knows, until he couldn't work anymore. For years, hmm, hmm. And, and I want to say that Mr. Orth was the one that had him working there. R. M. Orth. I remember R. M. Orth because he always gave us a box, probably about as tall as, as this here, and with, huge, huge box with fruits, and clothes, and shoes. And that's where I got that ragdoll from. (laughs) MAYFIELD: (laughs) Thank you, Mr. Orth. BUSTER: I think that he was the one, anyway. MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: He worked for the Rubinsteins. Uh, Dave, Dave's Pawn Shop. His name was Dave Rubenstein. Now, he owned that whole block, uh, I think. MAYFIELD: What part? What block did he own? BUSTER: Of, uh, Texas Avenue. MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: Um, Fourth. From Fourth all the way down, uh, to Davison's Home. Davison's was one of the stores, ,too. Uh, but he owned the public drugstore, that whole section. And there used to be like a Salvation Army in there, too. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: Because we used to walk right in there. It looked like, either Goodwill, it wasn't Goodwill. I think it was a Salvation Army of some sort, you know, to help us with the shoes, jewelry, the drugstore, ice-cream and all, yeah. Yeah, because we owned, we owned (unintelligible), it was right around Fourth and Texas, just a few blocks, so we walked everywhere anyway, you know. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Was that the only other disaster that you can remember in Texas City? BUSTER: Oh, what the plant always had something going on. Um, because my dad used to load us up in the big truck. He had a big truck that, and, and we just go and head on out. Got us. When we hear the horn go off. The whistle go off. And then he just, and, and he'd fire, you could hear, sometimes, you could hear him say something about fire or something. Just load up and go. And then wait till it cleared down and come back, you know. I mean, riding that truck many times and many places. Even to Louisiana, and all, you know. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Was that, like an open-bed truck? BUSTER: Yeah. It was a big, big open bed, because they hauled everything, you know, around. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Sounds like that Studebaker, right? The-- BUSTER: I don't know if that, what, that truck, the Studebaker. I don't. We had, uh, I, I want to say, another truck in there. Because they, that's what he kept. And one car. I only remember the one car, you know. And I know one was a Pontiac because we changed a tire on it and I was right there with him. MAYFIELD: You were learning how to change a tire? BUSTER: Oh, yeah, he showed me how to change a tire. And I, I've done it a few times too. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: The only thing that I was kind of light and my one brother had to come stand on it to get it loose. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: But I was light, but I did it, you know. I taught my children at twelve, my son at twelve how to change a tire on a car. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: All he wanted to do was start learning how to drive and I, but I said no, you need to learn more about where the oil and all this. I still do it, to this day. I did it just a few days ago. I checked the oil and fluid in the windshield wiper and stuff like that. It's kind of hard to get away from. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: (laughs) MAYFIELD: They taught you, they taught you right. BUSTER: Oh, yeah. Yeah. MAYFIELD: So, you were talking about different places that you shopped, um, what was the place that you shopped, your mom shopped for food for the family? BUSTER: We, the first main one was Pick &amp ; Pay. MAYFIELD: Pick &amp ; Pay? BUSTER: That's right down the street from us. I remember a Pic &amp ; Pac. I can't really remember where it was. And we had a store called Nuckols that, uh, uh, that uh, we shopped, my dad did. He did a lot of it too. My sister, Rose did a lot. And I would go wherever they sent me. That's where I'd go. And um, and we called one store, we called Big Natches and I can't, I can't even spell it now. And another, and, uh, well one was our Rizo's. And that was like a meat market. And that was on Texas Avenue going towards the dike down there. Um, Pick &amp ; Pay, oh goodness. C. P. Evans was another one. I remember going there for food. So we, we've been around shopping, you know. MAYFIELD: So, did you have to shop for several, you know, at maybe one place you shopped for fruit, one place you shopped for meat, you know. Did you have to shop around like that, or was it mostly in, you know you could go to one store and-- BUSTER: One. MAYFIELD: --everything-- BUSTER: You could go mostly to one store and uh, I want to say Rizo's was more, to me, I know I've gone there to get meat, year, whatever they sent us for, we would go, you know. Yeah. I think that's one I can remember, you know. But there was quite a few places, you know. And for clothing, we always went to Weiner's. There was a Weiner's. I used to love Chamber's, but I couldn't afford it, (laughs) at that time. But I, every once in a while, you could get something on sale like that, you know. MAYFIELD: You said, Weiner's? BUSTER: Weiner's? Uh huh. MAYFIELD: Was it a clothing store? BUSTER: Uh huh, yeah. Weiner's had a little of everything, you know, for shopping to go to school and things like that. MAYFIELD: Where was that located? BUSTER: It was on, it was on, right there, on, uh, Second and Sixth. Right on Sixth Street. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: Yeah, yeah. I think it was Second, the next street, yeah, First, Second. Because it, that, we would get to Weiner's before we got to the theater, you know. Yeah. MAYFIELD: The theater was right down street? BUSTER: Yeah. It was right down there in that area too, you know. MAYFIELD: Uh, so, um, how welcome did you feel in, in all of these stores? BUSTER: You know, I never had a problem, myself, you know. Uh, at one, one time a young, little girl, I'll say little girl, was walking to Weiner's and the child was saying--. I was eating an apple. It's the first time this come up. And actually, everybody else knew it. Uh, I was eating the apple and this little child was hollering the N word. Well, that used to be a fighting word (laughs). It used to be a fighting word. And some of our family didn't like us to fight or nothing like that, you know. Everything was, you know, man, woman, boy, girl. It never was Black or white in our growing up. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: It's man, woman, boy, girl. So, I, and I grew up with that, and me, and my children, too. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: So, and so, then I, I was eating that apple and I went over to the car and stuffed it down her mouth. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Oh. BUSTER: I looked for the police to pick me up, but they never did. But uh, that was a fighting word at that time. Could sometime, you walk, see because that side was segregated and you'd come across that's what you'd hear a lot of things doing, you know. But I, I never was too bothered about that, you know. Because my dad always said, man, woman, boy, or girl, no matter what color, you know. If you see my family now, I'm international. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: We got all races in it. All races. And my, my grandchildren, great-grandchildren, yeah. Yeah. MAYFIELD: They take your father's word, right? BUSTER: Yeah. They were,-- MAYFIELD: Don't see color? BUSTER: They were well, well, they were, they were raised, you know, like that, different. I guess they wanted us to be, you know, the same way they were. But it was strict. Now, my mom was very strict. My dad wasn't too bad, but my mom was, oh, (laughs) very strict. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: In what way was she so strict? BUSTER: Oh, you, we, we better listen, look, and, and don't talk back. Don't even look like you wanted to talk back. (laughs) That's the way that eye, that hand, that finger, that eye, unh-uh-uh, that's it. My dad wasn't going to say very much. And he not going to repeat it over and over either (laughs) that's just the way, but they, we understood that. Made us know that, you know. There's no way, my, um, uh, we could have been living and talk like these kids do to parents today. Unh-uh. (laughs) Oh, no. Oh, no. Mmm, mmm. MAYFIELD: It wouldn't have, yeah, they wouldn't have gotten away with it at your house. BUSTER: Oh, no. And if we had tried, we wouldn't be here to tell you about it (laughs). MAYFIELD: (laughs) Oh, my goodness. BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: Uh, let's see. We kind of talked about that. Okay. So, um, you, you know you mentioned a little what it was like being, um, African American in Texas City. You know-- BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: --you had the division-- BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: --from Texas Avenue. BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Um, you could go some places to get food, but not sit. BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. Yeah, that's right. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Um, and every now and again, you, you might see um, you know, people saying things that-- BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: --you know, were not complimentary to you, I imagine. Uh, so, you have this civil rights movement starting-- BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: So, what was that like being Black in Texas City? BUSTER: It was really scary, but I'm, I'm the type that liked to know what's going on and then see what's what and make sure it's been done right and fair. And out of, my dad was the honesty one, to be, --he wanted you to do what's right and do as you're told and all things like that. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: And um, so, it was interesting. Oh, I, I, when I joined the, older and I was eighteen, uh, do you want to go that far? MAYFIELD: You joined ; you joined the N-- BUSTER: --Well, I joined the NAACP later, but I was eighteen, because I did all the paperwork at my house for my dad, my mom and dad. And uh, when I turned eighteen, I went and got my, I wanted to vote. I went and got my poll tax, and it was three dollars that I paid for it then. And I turned eighteen, and then, from then on, they started calling me to help out with election things when it was going on. But this was, the civil rights was getting, I didn't, as a child, I missed a lot of it, a small child, but growing up, you know it got, you know, worse and worse. When I was joined the union. When I worked, um, and I worked under the leadership of, uh, Johnnie Henderson, and um, oh boy, he was dynamic. I mean, -- MAYFIELD: What do you mean by the union? BUSTER: We, it was a, a local, a labor local union that I joined. I'm still with the one that's on Texas Avenue now across from Amoco. I'm a retired member from it now, but um, we paid so much money, and even when I worked at the hospital, it was like fourteen dollars coming out of my check for the union dues and things like that. But union to me was a lot of help of finding out instead of us fighting, going, finding out was going on. We got people that worked together at that event, knew all about the problems and worked together and joined and that's when I joined. Uh, because I joined the NAACP, uh, chapter 6201 further back, you know, when I got older. But that's ever, uh, to me was a good thing to have the union because they fought for the, for everybody, you know. Not just Black, white. Everybody, you know. And I've always enjoyed. And I would march in a lot of protests and everything, myself. And there's-- MAYFIELD: Were there protests like marching protests in Texas City? BUSTER: Oh, yeah. Uh, huh. Oh, yeah. And, and it was, it was interesting because I'm watching a lot of them. As a matter of fact, uh, I wanted to go to the, uh, Selma, when, when, because Johnnie Henderson and a group, a lot of them was going. And I wanted to go, but I couldn't afford to go. And so, could said, I want to go to that, but I know there is a lot of violence, but you know, and it was something I wanted to know more about. To get involved in. And I've been involved in demonstrations, marching and everything, all my life, yeah. When I feel like something's not right, I post my opinion and you know hit the road. And you go around and you try to get people to come in and vote and, and see what's going on, you know. So that, so that was interesting to me, yeah. MAYFIELD: You were going around the community, um, uh, you know, discussing the issues-- BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: --with the community so that they would be able to understand, so that when it was time to vote, they would-- BUSTER: Right. MAYFIELD: --be able to make informed decisions? BUSTER: Oh yeah, yeah. We did a lot of that. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: Talking to people, trying to get them to know. Somebody would know, let you know what you're voting for. What it is. That's how when I got my poll tax. That's when they started with me and I was eighteen. Yeah. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Um, do you remember hearing talk about integrating schools? BUSTER: Yeah, but my, uh, when they did integrate, I graduated in '58 and it was '66. Well, I missed that part of it. But they had been talking about it, you know. And I thought that would be nice because we had used books where maybe five or six people maybe have had this book since we get them. We get them they're so old and torn and worn out, you know. So, I was, I was, I thought that would be nice, you know. You know. So, I had no, no regret about that. MAYFIELD: So, you felt like, um, integrating schools, that you would have more resources-- BUSTER: Right. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: --for schools. Right? BUSTER: And you'd be, we'd be together one, as one-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: --you know. And um, that's-- MAYFIELD: Was there discussion about why not to integrate schools? BUSTER: There was different opinion at that time, some didn't want to, but-- MAYFIELD: Do you know why they didn't want to? BUSTER: You know, when, back, at this, um, you know, I never, I never did discuss much with them. I felt like I'm going to do what I think is best and go. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: And go (laughs) so, that's what I usually do anyway, you know. MAYFIELD: Right. BUSTER: Yeah. Because we were raised up, no matter what or who you are, what, because in my house, my son said, &quot ; Mom, can my friend come spend the night?&quot ; And I'd be looking for, you know, it might be a little Black boy, it might be a Spanish or white. It just, the people just, I was raised with, just, uh, just so different, you know. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: And then, it didn't matter. And my children didn't matter what color they were. And I was glad of that, you know. Like my dad always taught us, you know. Man, woman, boy, girl. And God is still in control as he always (unintelligible) you, you don't have to worry about it. And if you have a problem, you talk to God about it, you know. And I just loved that with him, because that's become instilled in me (laughs) MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: You know. I tell my children to just prayer and talk to God. And I will always be that the way. I've always been that way, anyway, you know. And I like being fair and honest, and, you know, helpful. I, I loved working with, I always liked working with older people all my life. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: And I still do. And um, so, it was kind of hard for me to just turn my back on things that I know that wasn't right, you know. MAYFIELD: Well, you were mentioning something about Weingarten's, um, as a particular controversy that happened. BUSTER: Oh, yeah. MAYFIELD: Can you, can you talk a little bit about that? BUSTER: Yeah, um, Johnnie Henderson came up to the school and got the name of us, twelve of us. And uh, got our name and we, they called us in the office and told me, he explained to us what we was going to do. We're going to Weingarten's and go in and just sit down at the counter and uh, and be served. So, we didn't know. We just going on following what they said. And, uh, he got all our names and all. And when we went in, nobody was at the counter. So, I, I know [Points off camera] there was a group of us just lining up to sit there and we waited. Nobody would wait on us. And the one Black lady that was there, she started over to come and, I don't know whether to talk to us or say what. But the lady that's over the place called her back. So, we never got to talk to her. But we sit and sit and sit and waited. So, Johnnie Henderson just stood in the back, you know. He just stayed right back. Because we had to go to the counter and order our food, but he don't want to sit down and eat. And, uh, it was pretty close to lunch time, look like, because we thought we was going to sit there and eat, you know. We were so happy to go and sit down at the counter and eat. (laughs) And all of a sudden, here come the police come in. And he thought we were out of school, playing hooky or something. He was going to take us all to jail. So, oh, what Henderson did was to step up and say, &quot ; I got everybody's name here. They're with me.&quot ; MAYFIELD: Who said this? BUSTER: Johnnie Henderson. MAYFIELD: Okay. BUSTER: &quot ; They're with me.&quot ; And that was all he had to say. We thought, we were going to jail. (laughs) You know. That's all he said and so, he just, you know, okay, and then took us on back, on back to school. MAYFIELD: How old, what grade were you in? BUSTER: That was exciting. MAYFIELD: I mean, what year is that? BUSTER: It, it had to be eleventh. Around there, the eleventh. Tenth or eleventh. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: Because uh, I hadn't graduated on that. And, it had to be the tenth or the eleventh. I'm, I'm going to talk to some of the others and see if they can remember. But, um, that to me, that was fun (laughs). MAYFIELD: Who were some of the other kids that were with you? BUSTER: I remember, uh, Bobbie Hawkins and, uh, Ella Jean Jones. I wish she were here because we were close. We were the only two tennis players, women tennis players, female tennis players at the school at that time. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: And um, who else? Willie Ray James. And I can't remember who else just off the top of my head. But Johnnie Henderson had the names of us, you know. We opted to put us, he brought us on down there, here at Weingarten's right where the Food King is now. But when, back later, they took the counter out so the counter was gone. (laughs) So, that was, that was fine for us, you know. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: But we got ready to go to jail and the police come up. Two policemen came in and &quot ; Y'all out of school,&quot ; you know. And he, he stood back, you know, and we just come to eat, you know. He told us we were going to be served, you know. But he just stood back and all they did was just walk up and say, &quot ; they're with me and I got all of them names right here&quot ; , you know, so. MAYFIELD: So he was able to get you out of school-- BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: You went and sat at the counter. The police show up. They might potentially take you to jail for not being in school? BUSTER: Yeah, huh. That's what they thought. MAYFIELD: And he just sort of stood up with you and said, &quot ; no&quot ; . BUSTER: Yeah. &quot ; They're with me.&quot ; So, we didn't go to jail (laughs). We all thought we was going to jail. But that was fun. (laughs) At that time. MAYFIELD: Were there other events like that happening in Texas City? BUSTER: I was just happy to get out of school to do anything. (laughs) Really. And uh, I can't remember, I want to say Lance and Lester Taylor, but I can't really remember if they were right with us at that time or not. I'm trying to think of some of the others. I know Ella Jean Jones was one of them. Because she was right with me. Hmm. But it was, it was twelve of us. He took twelve of us up there. Yeah. So, I've been working every time he'd go anywhere, I would. You know, he was over the NAACP part, and so, I just stayed in it, you know, you know. I retired in it, you know. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: Yeah. Yeah. MAYFIELD: What were some of the more important Black leaders in your community. BUSTER: Okay. MAYFIELD: That you can remember during this time? BUSTER: Okay. In my community, oh, there was, uh, Mr. Fuller, Mr. Henry, and uh, Mr. Covenson was our Scout leader. They were very interesting. And the preachers. All the preachers always worked with us with everything. And I had-- MAYFIELD: I was going to ask you about that. What did the churches, what role did the churches play in, in the civil rights movement? BUSTER: They backed us. They backed us everywhere but, some of the people come to the church and they would let you know. The church was interested in letting you know if these people be qualified, if they're right to go, you know, not have trouble. There were always, uh, most everybody come to the church to, to be voted, to get votes. So, they, want to, you know, let us know if it's the right person you want to vote for and things like that. And they played a good part with anything that went on with us, with the group, and-- MAYFIELD: So, you're saying that people who were running for a vote, running for the vote, would come to the churches and they would sort of explain what they were-- BUSTER: Yeah, what's going on. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: Yeah, and that's all, every election, we have all the people come to the churches to. Because, if you, I have noticed that the majority of votes that, that, when they come to the church, the majority of the votes, they, on the good side, and they have a chance of getting in the office, you know. And I think they did that a lot more now than uh, they used to, yeah. MAYFIELD: Oh, I see. BUSTER: Yeah, uh huh, yeah. MAYFIELD: And, let's see. So, you belonged to the NAACP-- BUSTER: Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: --in Texas City, correct? BUSTER: Yeah, Mainland branch, hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. Who belonged to that branch with you? BUSTER: Oh, we had, God-- we had so many. We had the Williams, the Henderson family, the Williams family, and um, God. We had so many people. Miss Annie Pearl White. And uh, God. We had quite a few, you know. Had to -- MAYFIELD: -- Did you play any specific role, like specifically women, did they play a role during the civil rights movement? BUSTER: Oh, yeah. They worked right along with the men most of the time, you know, as far as I know of, right with the men. And the women would do phone calls and contact people also, you know, to get, try to get them to come and join. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: And uh, because I joined, uh, at my church. I signed my children up at my, at the church by the youth department because we had a youth, too, department. MAYFIELD: Who was your leader, like when you first joined? Who, was Johnnie Henderson in charge? BUSTER: He was, he was in charge. MAYFIELD: Okay. BUSTER: He was a strong boss. MAYFIELD: He was in charge for a while, it seems. A lot. BUSTER: Yeah, he was in charge for a lot. Anything that went on, even with the union, and then the--. He even come to City Hall. I was making, well--, at the hospital, I made a dollar sixty-two an hour. He got my check and said, would you mind me taking it, went to. The same thing with the Mayor Doyle, he come to the, see how much I was making, went over and talked to him about the, the money that I was making. Well, I've always been the type, I never just worked just for the money. I worked to help people. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: And I, that's what I've done all my life. You know, even though I needed the money, whatever I got, fine with me. Because at ninety-seven cents an hour, if I was just looking for money, I never would have worked at John Sealy-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: (laughs) but I wanted to be in the nursing field, you know. And then a dollar an hour, I left ninety-seven cents at John Sealy, and come to Mainland for a dollar an hour. But I still worked with the mothers and babies-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: --and help around here, you know. So, I, and I worked at City Hall, I wasn't making that much money. I started there with six dollars an hour and then I left at nine fifty-three. I never even got to ten dollars. MAYFIELD: Mmm. BUSTER: I made, I made more working, uh, home health on a weekend. I worked for Mantooth Home Health taking care of May, May Bruce in Santa Fe. And uh, working weekends, weekends and nights, nine-fifty an hour when I was only making seven at the city. So, my boss took those ten thousand dollars that I made, W-2 form, and the city was seven thousand something. I gave it to Tom Peterson, was my, uh, city secretary. I showed him, I said and this is just like weekends, and you know, overtime weekend. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: And he took it across to Mayor Doyle and that's when I got a hundred dollars across the board raise. (laughs) MAYFIELD: Wow. BUSTER: That's when I a got a hundred dollars across the board, now, raise. But I never got to, uh, in twenty years, I never got to ten dollars. But like I said, I didn't just work to make the money. Just because my husband worked at the plant at that time. And because it was, it wasn't all that. He definitely needed it, but you know, I worked to help people-- MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: --you know. And I liked working with, you know. I'm not the type to just sit around and do nothing, you know. So, it's kind of hard to get away from it even though I'm older now. (laughs) Yeah. MAYFIELD: Well, so the NAACP is, has a big influence in Texas City. BUSTER: Oh, yes. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: The churches have a big influence. BUSTER: Yes, yes. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: Were there any other groups or agencies that also had influence? BUSTER: Working with, --growing up and working with them, those were like our main, uh, interests was, uh, helping, that was looking for help and needing help. That was our main, uh, source of people, you know, working with them. I don't know, uh. MAYFIELD: Do you remember where you were when Martin Luther King was killed? BUSTER: Mainland Center Hospital. MAYFIELD: You were working? BUSTER: I was working there, hmm, hmm. Second floor of Mainland Center. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: What was the reaction around you? BUSTER: Oh, it was horrible, you know. People were mad and some were scared. But, you know, what could we do about it? We were working. And oh God, it was a lot of threatening going on with the opposite race, you know. MAYFIELD: What do you mean a lot of threatening. BUSTER: Yeah, matter, even though he was killed because he was Black, you had the Blacks threatening the white. We had a lot of that going on at one time, you know. Uh, we didn't have to. I didn't, I never did worry about stuff like that, that I can't do nothing about. And I was raised that way, you know. So,-- MAYFIELD: There were Black people in Texas City threatening white people, too-- BUSTER: Oh, yeah. MAYFIELD: --or no, just in other places? BUSTER: Oh, just, really it was other places too and Texas City. MAYFIELD: Oh, okay. BUSTER: Yeah. It was, oh, God, all over the news, you know, how some people would react. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: But, I mean, that's, what can you do about something in a situation like that? You was way off. That was way off, you know. I hated it, you know. And I loved that man. Because he was really a lot of influence with us, really. Yeah. I have a niece that worked for his daughter. Uh, she just stepped out a few years ago. She worked for her for a long time, you know. Took pictures with and all. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: It really was nice. Yeah. MAYFIELD: Well, we're kind of at, toward the end of our, our program right now, uh, our questions. Um, so are there any final thoughts? Anything else you would like to share that we haven't really touched upon? BUSTER: Seems like we have covered, is there anything else? We've covered most everything that I could think of. Uh. I think we've ; I think we've done, uh, covered everything. I've enjoyed that, you know. Thank you all so very much for that. Really, I appreciate it. It's, it's the first time I really got to talk about the disaster and things like that and to let you know. So, that, it's interesting me and I was excited about that, you know. MAYFIELD: Well, I'm glad that it was not a bad experience, that way. BUSTER: Yeah. I, I just learn to pray and keep going. And uh, my pastor preached that. Um, Rev. Benford has really been a blessing in our life, you know, with all this that's been going on, you know. And um, that has helped me come a long ways, you know, a lot further since my family, my mother and dad, my dad helped me. So, it's a blessing to have him. And I have other ministers, too, that's been in the family, around, yeah. MAYFIELD: He's really ministering to you. BUSTER: Oh he's, he's a Bible scholar. MAYFIELD: Hmm, hmm. BUSTER: Celebrating seventy-one years in one church-- MAYFIELD: I know. BUSTER: --on Sunday. Yeah. MAYFIELD: We just had an interview. I, I interviewed him-- BUSTER: Yeah. MAYFIELD: --before. And so, um, uh, he had a lot, a lot-- BUSTER: Oh, yes. MAYFIELD: --that he could contribute, you know-- BUSTER: Oh, yeah. Hmm, hmm. MAYFIELD: --to the conversation. Yeah. Well, this concludes our interview with Daisy Belle Buster. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for sharing your stories with us and, um, taking time, and, and, um, and allowing us to ask you so many questions. BUSTER: Why thank you, thank you so much for it. It's exciting. Yes. MAYFIELD: You're welcome. BUSTER: Yeah. Thank you. -------End of Transcript------- All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, and copyrights, have been transferred to the Moore Memorial Public Library in Texas City. Parties interested in production or commercial use of the this resource should contact the Library Director at Moore Memorial Public Library. video 0 https://ohms.texascitylibrary-oralhistory.org/viewer.php?cachefile=2021OH_AAE002.xml 2021OH_AAE002.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daisy Belle Buster Description An account of the resource Daisy Buster talks about growing up in a family with seventeen children, her community, and attending Booker T. Washington School. She talks about visiting her grandparents in Louisiana and how her sister, Rose, was almost like another mother to her. She talks about the importance of attending the Methodist Church and taking part in the BYPU activities. She describes how Reverend Perry stood out in her memory as an influential preacher. Buster is a self-described tomboy and shares how she grew up boxing with her brothers in their own boxing ring. Buster tells how she joined the school choir and had the opportunity to sing at different venues around town. She also talks about her college aspirations and career goals growing up. Buster describes growing up in a segregated community and how Texas Avenue was the dividing line between her neighborhood and the rest of Texas City. She talks about her first time being confronted with racial discrimination. She talks about her role in a sit-in at the lunch counter at Weingarten’s. She tells of her experience with the 1947 Texas City Disaster, being separated from her family, and then finding them at Camp Wallace. She talks about being close to delivering her baby during Hurricane Carla. She talks about joining the NAACP, participating in civil rights protest marches, and voting. She discusses how the Church was integral in backing the message of civil rights and desegregation in the community. Buster also talks about the death of Martin Luther King, Jr., and the impact it had. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2021OH_AAE002 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-11-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://www.texascitytx.gov/DocumentCenter/View/3386/Copyright_2021_Final">MMPL Copyright Statement</a>